Canto aus der Burgenstadt (Ursus Son)

[Nightshadows]

Then I suggest you skip over the "other stuff" and read the posts strictly about Canto. I think this is a good discussion. ;D

SemtemorGSD said:

I just want to know more about this Ursus son, not the other stuff. Thank you.

[JanisN]

SemtemorGSD said:

I just want to know more about this Ursus son, not the other stuff. Thank you.

It's a shame you feel like that. Because breedworthiness isn't about pretty pictures. It's about the dog. And with a male, it's about the production of the dog.

In this case, what Canto looks like, what his line breeding is, what a wunder hund he is is totally immaterial. Until he is deemed "recommended to breed" who cares about him? Certainly nobody who "counts" in the breed and nobody who breeds to influence the breed. His progeny (production) won't have any effect on the breed because they're lost to the gene pool.

At this point, Canto and millions of nice dogs like him are nice pets. And that's not a bad thing to be, but I want a bit more in a stud dog.

JanisN

[Currmudgeon]

workingdawg said:

i don't believe a title and/or breed survey is the be all end all of a dog, *however, i say this because i *have* titled dogs, and trained dogs that went on to become dual purpose police k9's. i would not ever breed an untitled dog *unless* i had worked that dog ...

This is a very pragmatic approach. I guess that's because producing dogs that actually work is a pragmatic business. You must do what works. In the end, it's the dog that will tell you whether you've succeeded or not. And that's the only test that really matters.

People have successfully trained mongrel dogs as tactical animals, so obviously, titling is not a sin qua non.

But if you're going to acquire a dog to actually do something, rather than just keep the dog food surplus under control, then the more you know about the individual animal, the better your chances are.

You are in a position to work the dog and make a decision based on what that dog has shown you. Likewise when Tito blew his Sieger Show bitework, we had other datapoints to rely on and made an independant decision. I suppose I should be arguing that, if we had any brains, we'd have run like hell from that dog. But having seen the animal under other circumstances, and knowing that he had passed SchH III trials in the past, gave us the additional information we needed to take Tito to Ulm.

Titling is just a datapoint. It's a relatively important one, but it's just a datapoint.

But, if you propose to breed the dog under the SV system, and sell puppies in the SV World, then titling is obviously necessary. The progeny of untitled dogs are not registerable GSDs under SV rules.

I have a general problem with statements like, "the dog would be easy to title if you wanted to." That sort of statement says to me that the animal could not be titled. It has a problem. For me it is up to the seller to demonstrate that his stock is qualified. That's done, in part, by titling.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, spend a lot of effort explaining why it's not important.

[Currmudgeon]

JanisN said:

I want a bit more in a stud dog.

In particular, as a super stud, I'd like to be able to breed to him.

As an untitled dog that has no visible show record, I can't breed to him.

As a speculative dog, one that you must assume you can title, and you must assume will show well, but comes from good lines, he's basically worth a little more than his puppy price.

[BigDoggie]

Wow.....administrator or non-administrator, you just don't seem to be understanding the question. It is simply, "does anybody know anything or have any impressions about this dog", a dog that appears to have major potential and has been viewed with major excitement. It's just not a complicated issue or post....so don't make it one.

Of course breedworthiness is important. Who ever said it wasn't.??!!!!!

A dog's conformation, pigmentation, pedigree, and temperament is NOT immaterial, if someone is asking about it and is interested in it. It's called "information", and information may be analyzed, considered, and utilized for numerous purposes. Get it? The same applies to any information on his progeny. Discussing whether a dog has major potential is a common interest of SOME breeders.....although I guess not ALL breeders....

And, if someone asked about young Tito at the beginning, something tells me you wouldn't scream out in response, "it's totally immaterial !!!", "since he's young and untitled !!!", "is not yet recommended to breed !!!". "I don't care if you are interested!!!!!!!" "His potential is not something to be discussed!!" 'He's just what I call a pet!!!", "so go away!!!!!!!!"


What's really on your mind Janis?

I suppose it's now time for all of your friends ---the International Moderator, the Co-Administrator, the Transglobal Host, the Executive Production Director, da-dee-da-dee-da -- to now jump in........Go for it.....

If anybody out there has any substantive information or impressions of the dog initially inquired about, I, and others, remain very interested.

[Nightshadows]

I understand your question.

Why is it YOU think this male has such tremendous potential?

[gsdoglady]

Gee -- I have been gone for a while and just came back to all this.

I generally enjoy reading information about as many dogs as possible and if someone sees a dog, I enjoy hearing what their impression of the dog was. It is just more information to factor into the old gray matter.

That doesn't mean that the views on titling are not valid - it just means that we should not discourage people from discussing dogs. I had seen the photo of Canto and it is nice to know that someone says he is nicer than that photo in person. Doesn't meant hat I will run out tomorrow to breed to him - just means that I will be interested to get further info to see how he progresses.

Most of us have an interest in the Ursus bloodline and the more information we have on what comes from that line, the better. We all can filter out what we feel is important or not.

[JanisN]

BigDoggie said:

And, if someone asked about young Tito at the beginning, something tells me you wouldn't scream out in response, "it's totally immaterial !!!", "since he's young and untitled !!!", "is not yet recommended to breed !!!". "I don't care if you are interested!!!!!!!" "His potential is not something to be discussed!!" 'He's just what I call a pet!!!", "so go away!!!!!!!!"

Oh how well you know me.<laughing> Since I didn't own Tito as a youngster who knows what I would have said? But you've pretty much captured the things I say about my Fritz son, Ando.

At 13 months, Ando's showing promise. He's shown well in conformation, he's doing well in training. But until all the I's are dotted and all the T's are crossed, he's JUST A PET.

What YOU don't understand is that a male is not about the dog you are physically looking at. An adult male doesn't have that luxury. He's about what he produces. And as he produces what he is, you need to KNOW what he is. You don't know anything with an untitled male.

What do we know about this male? He's an Ursus son. He's got no show record. He's been bred without titling. He has some pretty awful pictures out there on the 'net. You know more about him? Please feel free to share.

JanisN

[BigDoggie]

Thank you gsdoglady, for a clear, concise, well articulated assessment....Again...Thank you!!!!

As to what I know about Canto? The answer is, "not much", other than what I have heard in general terms, his conformation and visual characteristics that I personally saw (generally mentioned in the first post of this thread), what Dog1 posted, and what another person posted (which upset some people)......

[freundhund]

BigDoggie

I had a question as to why you where asking about this dog. So I put into my search engine and found information about him.

Can you explain why you would be interested in a dog that has reached X-raying age and doesn't appear to be X-rayed for either Hip or Elbow Dysplasia or to have been tested for Haemophillia. I can accept that you like the dog as an Australian breeder where we are not permited to Schutzhund title however I cannot condone the using of an animal that is not physically fit. Please can you give me justification.

NOW could you explain your vey how your very first impressions of the dog appear to be used in the advertising of him in a litter. As you do not care to inform others of who you are by not providing and email or web address to someone outside the US this to me appears to be self advertising.

Please NOTE I am not a friend of any board members I just happened to be a board member who reads these articles as a method of self improvement. Until such time as a better picture is provided a number of overseas members have only these to go on as such I will only comment on the photo provided. Could you pleas explain to me what is good about this dogs croup for me I took one look at the phto and said I would not use a dog with a croup like that the extreme steepness of the croup in my eyes cannot be justified.

Regards

Freundhund

[Wolf]

As one of the Super Duper Co-Head Production Co-ordinating Administrators I'd like to ask what ever gave you the impression that I enjoy 'jumping in' to conversations with constraining orders, unless a member is being completely out of line? Something which hasn't occurred here, yet.

Anyways, back to the issues at hand. You seem to think Jan has some sort of hidden agenda here. Quite the contrary, IMO...I can't think of anyone better to vouch for the importance of proving a dog out. Tito had failed some bitework in the past, and tongues were flapping about his 'work', to be sure. And how were these skeptic put to rest? Tito went out and has proven himself in not one, not two, but three Sieger shows, including this past year in Ulm, Germany. (And I hear that particular display of work was particularly impressive.)

And that's what we're really talking about here, right? Proving what a dog can do? It's not enough to say, here we have potentially a good producer, potentially a good worker. Until the owners can get the dog out there and prove to everyone that he is worth breeding to, he won't be - not for the serious breeders.

I don't think anyone here dislikes this dog, Canto. That's not what this is about - the discussion turned towards the importance of titling, etc, and the best conversations come from topic changes, so anyone who doesn't want to read it can scroll through really quickly looking for the information they want.

Anyways, I wish Canto and his owner the best of luck. If they can prove what some have professed, it can only be for the benefit of the breed. And that's what we all want, right?


-Stef
Co-Big Cheese

[Currmudgeon]

BigDoggie said:

Wow.....administrator or non-administrator, you just don't seem to be understanding the question. It is simply, "does anybody know anything or have any impressions about this dog", a dog that appears to have major potential and has been viewed with major excitement. It's just not a complicated issue or post....so don't make it one.

It isn't a complicated issue. I understand it perfectly.

The issue is that you are attempting to market a non-breedworthy dog.

Beyond that, the members of this board, and last time I checked, I was a member, too, can discuss just about anything on topic that they choose. You do not get to direct where this thread will go. Hell, I can't control that either.

And, if someone asked about young Tito at the beginning, something tells me you wouldn't scream out in response, "it's totally immaterial !!!",

The situations are not parallel. You are touting two year old untitled dog, who has already sired backyard puppies, as the next Super Stud.

He ain't a super anything unless he is breedworthy.

"since he's young and untitled !!!"

Two years isn't all that young. Your marketing blurb stated things luike, "the word is that the owners are waiting patiently..." "I'VE HEARD THE OWNERS HAVE BEEN HUSH-HUSH ABOUT THIS DOG," "He will go to Europe for his titles ..."

So we have an unknown dog, that so far couldn't be titled, that has not shown, that no one has ever seen, but that is being hyped. I'll tell ya, it sounds an awful lot like a duck, to me.

[BigDoggie]

Freuhund,

I know nothing about the dog's hips, elbows, etc...

And, I'm not here condoning using any dog for anything.

Also, it's a nice thought, but I don't have, and I'm not having, any such litter to advertise. (This is getting funny!!)

_____________

Stef,

I don't want to upset the other folks here, but
I AGREE WITH YOU !!!!!

_______________

Dennis (husband of Jan),

I don't know if he's breedworthy or not.

As to your comments under the second cited quote, the situations ARE parallel. You need to read more carefully, and then apply fundamental principles of basic, syllogistic logic in your analysis.

Nice try, for whatever reason, and don't be too bummed out, but I'm not involved in any breeding with him, I don't own him (but I think I'd like to), and I know very little about him.

Oh, yeah...sorry again old friend, but, contrary to your assertions, I never said or wrote "He will go to Europe for his titles". You are making things up, but go ahead and have a good time.

And when you use quotes, quote it all in context, not clauses out of context. Otherwise, the veracity of your comments comes in to question.

And, sorry one last time, but I still think Tito is a spectacular dog (even if you think this is unconscionable, reprehensible advertising).

[Norm]

What is the big fuss over this dog? He has a nice head and that's about it. His shoulder is straight. Hard to tell but he appears to be east/west. His croup is horrible and he has no rear angulation. Cover his head and he apears to have the body of a pet quality dog.

[Image removed by Currmudgeon at the request of the Owner]

[JanisN]

My apologies. The very first message in this thread should have been moved to the stud dog section of the Marketplace as it is obviously an advertisement for a stud dog.

Since there is no way to move individual messages and leave the rest of the thread, we are stuck with it "as is".

The conversation has now become totally inane, accusations of bias, etc... I'm out of here.

BigDoggie, I don't know who you are, don't care to know. But I would like to say that only my friends and family are invited to use the shortened version of my name, I would appreciate it if you refer to me by my board name which is "JanisN". Thank you.

JanisN