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Post by Mary on Mar 2, 2004 21:28:56 GMT -5
Well said Janis You're right on.
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Post by BigDoggie on Mar 2, 2004 21:36:20 GMT -5
hmmmmmmm...........I agree with virtually everything you said--totally--and I suspect Zuni would also, but it wasn't really responsive to your initial question on titling...or zuni's post. You get sick and tired of the sharp or cowardly $800 puppies that are out there masquarading as what the true German Shepherd dog should be? Me too!!! I also get sick and tired of cowardly $3,000 pups from the new, "hot" parents, that turn into absolute nothings, over and over again.........How about you? You say, " ut titles on the parents and THEN maybe I'll look at the progeny. Until that point, the puppies are just brown dogs." Who is asking YOU to look at them?! and if the parents' underlying qualities and characteristics are superlative, titling is another issue. If Ursus wasn't titled, he would still be Ursus. You might not like the FACT, but it is still a FACT....Titling is obviously critical....obviously. But that wasn't the point being made.........by anybody...Oh, and the pups wouldn't just be "brown dogs".......they'd be deep black and vivid red dogs... AND I STILL LOVE TITO !!!!!!!!! good luck with his litter!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by JanisN on Mar 2, 2004 21:52:03 GMT -5
As I said, the titling system isn't foolproof. No system is. But it's better than nothing. Breeding from untitled parent stock is nothing.
Would Ursus still be Ursus without the titles. Of course. But who would care? Nobody would breed good bitches to him. Don't forget that Ursus brings only half the genetics to the equation, the mother line is equally important. If you breed a great stud to inferior bitches you get crap progeny. Maybe the occasional superstar but very occasionally and very rarely.
When people say 'Oh my dog could be titled, but...' I quit listening after "but". What they're really saying is "We couldn't do it". Fine. They couldn't do it. But don't breed the bitch for pete's sake. Nobody knows if you couldn't do it because Aunt Selma needed surgery or because the bitch was so gunshy she fell apart on the training field! Accept that you have a beautiful pet and move on.
You're right, nobody asked me to look at anybody's puppies. Nobody needs my approval, etc., it's a free country, yadda yadda yadda. But this is a bulletin board where we are free to express our opinion as long as we do it respectfully. And I very respectfully ask "If you say your bitch CAN be titled then why aren't you titling her?" It's a LEGITIMATE question.
People who "pay their dues" in training and titling deserve some respect. Heck, even those of us who have plunked out big bucks on dogs that are already titled to slot into our breeding program deserve some respect. Training sure doesn't stop the instance the IPO III is inked in the score book. We take our chances with puppies and work for the two years, showing, training, trialing. Sometimes for nothing, and then we start all over again. It's hard, it's expensive, it can be heartbreaking. But as I said before, it's the cost you pay if you want to do it RIGHT.
So, just don't come and tell me all about your super wonderful bitch that you've bred to super wonderful Mr. Untitled. So what if they coulda been contenders? If they aren't out there contending, they don't count.
JanisN
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Post by Wolf on Mar 2, 2004 22:01:59 GMT -5
If Ursus wasn't titled, he would still be Ursus. He would still be Ursus the dog, yes. He would not, however, be Ursus the Sieger, Ursus the superstar, and most importantly, Ursus the producer. And at the end of the day in the breeding world, production is all that matters.
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Post by Wolf on Mar 2, 2004 22:03:11 GMT -5
By the way, Janis, I love Tito too. Congrats on his #1 Progeny Group at NASS.
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Post by JanisN on Mar 2, 2004 22:07:43 GMT -5
Thanks Stef! That was a fun group and left no doubts about production.<grin> What's really neat is hearing so many training reports on the progeny and planning on who's going to the German Sieger Show this year. I wish we had the budget to take 15 of them... having a Tito progeny group there would be a dream come true. But darn it, these dog owners insist on paying their mortgages.<sigh>
JanisN
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Post by BigDoggie on Mar 2, 2004 22:16:25 GMT -5
Come on Janis. Calm down. NOBODY IS QUESTIONING THE IMPORTANCE OF TITLING.....Nodody ever did, and nobody with a brain ever will..........just don't sound so defensive, or whatever, on someone's 3-2 Ursus linebreeding......and remember, no dog is titled until it gets titled........even Tito wasn't titled once. AND.....now he is.......See? Have a good night........
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Kerry
Full Member
Posts: 177
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Post by Kerry on Mar 2, 2004 23:06:17 GMT -5
Kerry.....your points are definitely well taken........and only time will tell.....but I've really got to tell ya, if Zuni's 3-2 line-breeding on Ursus (through Canto) results in a litter where all the pups look like Ursus with the Ursus faults, Zuni's going to be one happy breeder. Ursus, with his faults, "ain't" too bad. Of course, if his faults come through exaggerated in the litter, we will have learned something. And, if Zuni's female's characteristics end up compensating for any Ursus fault, someone has hit a home run!!! Time will tell, and good luck Zuni.....!!! OH, PuLEEEZ, BigDoggie! Cut & paste puppies? OK! We all hope that it works that way! The dog mentioned above appears, by his close linebreeding, to possess MORE of the poor traits that Ursus throws, and LESS of the good ones. To tout this upcoming breeding as something so fabulous as to blow everybody away, because of the 3-2 linebreeding on Ursus is simply a poorly veiled advertising/marketing technique by Zuni. Zuni, Zuni, Zuni... You've got a remarkable, innate ability to fantasize that the untitled dogs that you are breeding to and producing, combined with an uncanny use of adjectives are going to make a difference in the world of German Shepherds. Have you thought of going into the used car business, or selling beach front property in Arizona?
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Kerry
Full Member
Posts: 177
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Post by Kerry on Mar 2, 2004 23:12:42 GMT -5
And I very respectfully ask "If you say your bitch CAN be titled then why aren't you titling her?" It's a LEGITIMATE question. People who "pay their dues" in training and titling deserve some respect. Heck, even those of us who have plunked out big bucks on dogs that are already titled to slot into our breeding program deserve some respect. Training sure doesn't stop the instance the IPO III is inked in the score book. We take our chances with puppies and work for the two years, showing, training, trialing. Sometimes for nothing, and then we start all over again. It's hard, it's expensive, it can be heartbreaking. But as I said before, it's the cost you pay if you want to do it RIGHT. So, just don't come and tell me all about your super wonderful bitch that you've bred to super wonderful Mr. Untitled. So what if they coulda been contenders? If they aren't out there contending, they don't count. JanisN Amen, Amen and Amen, Janis.
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Post by JanisN on Mar 3, 2004 1:13:57 GMT -5
Come on Janis. Calm down. NOBODY IS QUESTIONING THE IMPORTANCE OF TITLING.....Nodody ever did, and nobody with a brain ever will..........just don't sound so defensive, or whatever, on someone's 3-2 Ursus linebreeding......and remember, no dog is titled until it gets titled........even Tito wasn't titled once. AND.....now he is.......See? Have a good night........ Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm calm. I know what's worth getting my knickers in a knot over and what isn't. Nobody is questioning the importance of titling? Zuni certainly doesn't consider it worthwhile. Why else advertise a breeding between two untitled animals? Sorry if I sounded defensive, I'm not. I don't NEED to defend what I'm doing. I do what I do, what others do is immaterial to me.<shrug> It doesn't actually have any effect on what I do. Of course Tito wasn't titled.<snort> And he wasn't producing when he wasn't titled. You don't get it, you don't want to get it and I'm not one to run my head repeatedly into a brick wall (tho it DOES feel good when one stops) for the fun of it. The kindest thing I can say about the proposed breeding (or already accomplished for all I know) is "So what?" Big deal. The progeny from that breeding are OUT of the gene pool, maybe 8 or 10 people will get very pretty pets. We won't see them in the show ring or on the trial field, they won't exist for the breeders who WORK at what they're doing. Zuni tries to promote herself/himself as a serious breeder of the best lines. Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on it. JanisN
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Post by Andi on Mar 3, 2004 1:44:05 GMT -5
Geez, Jan, haven't you learned to only sell those pups to people with lots of disposable income? How are you ever gonna get rich?
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Post by workingdawg on Mar 3, 2004 8:43:32 GMT -5
i'll chime in here, and not quote anyone i don't believe a title and/or breed survey is the be all end all of a dog, *however, i say this because i *have* titled dogs, and trained dogs that went on to become dual purpose police k9's. i would not ever breed an untitled dog *unless* i had worked that dog, or knew someone i trusted immensly to evaluate that dog for me. it is common practice in holland for the knpv people to breed untitled dogs, and bitches, also dogs with no pedigrees, but their main focus is a dog that can work, can complete a knpv ph2 certificate.i agree with their ideals, as even the untitled dogs are at the very least worked and evaluated. now in this case, i don;t know zuni, so i cannot comment on his/her ability to actually evaluate a dogs ability to work, let alone be compatible with the breed standard, but i will say, i find it rather difficult to accept someone who has likely never put so much as a CD or BH on a dog tell me that a dog "can do the work"... if you have never accomplished "the work"..how can you tell me that dog has what it takes? in a perfect world, every dog would be titled and surveyed, and all those dogs would have HONESTLY earned those titles, but it is not a perfect world, training and titling a dog takes time and $$, and lots of time, and then a little more $$. as it is, i drive 112 miles one way to club *once* a week, and am excited we will be back to training *twice* a week soon ;D in the case of this thread, i do agree with the majority..since it was stated that this "super" male has pups that are a year old now, and he is just a little over 2 himself, he was bred at a year..THAT i find a STRETCHING it.... it;s fine to advertise your pups as being what they are, out of two untitled parents..don't try and use smoke and mirrors and make them into the next best thing,(hey they may very well be but....),just advertise them as what they are, the same as every other litter of pups from untitled parents..$150.00 classified newspaper ad puppies that are from "thoroughbred parents with AKC Champion parents"
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Post by SemtemorGSD on Mar 3, 2004 11:50:51 GMT -5
Hello all.
This thread is kind of confusing.
I was just interested in the young Ursus Batu son, Canto Burgenstadt. A number of folks seem to be posting things on other areas. Bigdog mentioned this Canto, his impressions when he saw him, and asked anybody for any information on him. Zuni mentioned her impressions of this dog, what she has heard, and that she is even using him to sire a litter to be a linebreeding on Ursus, and Dog1 told us his perceptions when he saw Canto, his feelings about the Canto puppies that he saw, and what he has heard about the owner's intentions (Thank you much Dog1). With out all of this other stuff the posters are arguing about, does anybody have any other information on Canto, along the lines of what Dog1, Bigdog, and Zuni posted? I just want to know more about this Ursus son, not the other stuff. Thank you.
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Post by ovejero on Mar 3, 2004 12:05:31 GMT -5
[Image Removed by Currmudgeon, at the request of the Owner]
This is the dog we are talking about, and frankly, I don't know what it is we are really "talking about"....
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Post by BigDoggie on Mar 3, 2004 12:14:34 GMT -5
Thanks Ovejero!!! Unfortunately, this is a very old pic and looks nothing like Canto. If you have any others, please be so kind as to post them. THANK YOU AGAIN !!
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