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Post by Brittany on Dec 15, 2003 12:00:38 GMT -5
In my humble opinion, I think that people are taking the AKC and SV shows too seriously, which causes them to have such prejudice against a certain line (American vs German). I find it pathetic when I see people on message board blabbing away of how horrible a certain line is. I really think in my own never-ending humble opinion that if you hate a certain line that you HATE the breed. you should start off by going to a different breed, like poodles and start complaining of the shavings that they have and to see how big that your poodles ball tail has, not that I am against poodles because I have 2 standard poodles at home. You cannot call your self a German shepherd lover if you have prejudice against certain lines.
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Post by Anakin & Phoenix on Dec 15, 2003 13:55:07 GMT -5
I think what happens is that people become familiar with the various perceived weaknesses and strengths, or think they know them and due to human nature being what it is begin to look down on what they see as inferior.
Quite often ignoring proof to the contrary.
From my own experience...my 'demon' is Degenerative Myelopathy. Having lost two dogs to it I 'fear' DM, for lack of a better word, and certain lines/pairs of dogs that keep showing up in DM pedigrees...being as I am only human when I see those pairs of dogs in a pedigree I 'look down' on that pedigree. Not even taking into consideration how good the dog in question is.
So quite honestly my predjudice kicks in...I just try to keep my mouth shut for the most part about how I feel...but human nature being what it is...some people are very vocal in their predjudices and we hear about it and not always in pleasant terms.
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Post by freundhund on Dec 15, 2003 19:52:03 GMT -5
Hi Brittany
As an unbiased observe I feel I can make a comment here. We don't have American lines in Australia.
As far as this board goes we have not had anybody "bash" anyone about their dog choices. In fact I have noted how well balanced and welcoming this board was to all lines. I have previously looked at someboards and decided I didn't want to join because of the bigotory between lines Am/WestGer/EastGer/ DDR/Cech.
To my mind this board has a lot going for it. I believe in future we will have people that will post articles that will help us all gain in our breed.
Regards
Freundhund
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GSDnut
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Post by GSDnut on Dec 23, 2003 18:02:34 GMT -5
Sorry Guys !!! I think it was me 'Bashing' American Lines in another thread that has probably got Brittany going on this one. I note that so far there have been 76 viewings of this thread, but only three replies. It would therefore appear that 73 people have no opinion, or feel that this topic is too hot a cookie to handle!!! Of course, Brittany, they are all GSDs, but I don't have to take most of them home (Thank Goodness!) - For me personally, there is only one standard to assess a GSD, and that is the FCI. The WORLD standard. The Brits have got their 'English' Type, which is basically what we were showing over 30 years ago - a very 'Square' dog. The Americans have their 'American' type, which is an over-long dog, with overlong stifle and a straight back that slopes at about 40 degrees. Even the Germans have a 'split' in the breed between Working and Show type dogs!!! I am sure that other countries have their native 'type' - none of which I can reconcile to any written standard I have seen, and in my opinion (for the little it is worth!) - The German Shepherd is a continuously developing (and Improving!) Dog and these 'types' are shapes and conformations that were somewhere on that evolutionary trail that have stayed 'Time-Locked' for the last 30 - 50 years. From the foregoing, you may say - Ahhh!, those are the words of a 'German Type' enthusiast....But no, I personally feel that all types in the show ring are 'extremes', just as clothing is on the fashion catwalk, or 'concept cars' are at an International Motor Show. For me I favour a 'Crossover' Dog, which is one that has taken the good points from all 'types' and lost all extremism, and which could be shown in either camp. This the only way to mend the terrible rift in our breed and for us all to be able to exhibit again without having to scrutinise who is the Judge at the next show and will they like 'my type'? Oh, It is a 'German Type' Judge - he won't like my dogs!!! What d**n nonesense !!!! This is one breed, with one standard (other than the one that the Americans have written to suit themselves), and once we accept that fact, this breed can move forward again, or else it is doomed to split even more and move into oblivion. At a Show about 6 months ago, I admired a dog, which to me epitomises a type that could be (in this country!) shown in either side of the split...the owner gave me this picture of him, and although he has yet to even get a place at a show, in my eyes, he is one beautiful dog - and yes!...I would take HIM home with me!!!  I don't want a Shiloh, King, Dwarf, White, or Long Coat that all seem to be the rage in the USA, that breeders are producing to satisfy consumer demand, and it may soon happen in the UK - I know some BYBs here are intentionally breeding L/Cs and Whites. I would like to lay a bet that the good Captain is turning in his grave!!! Kind regards John |
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 23, 2003 20:32:05 GMT -5
John, Of course as someone who favors American breds I beg to differ with you. Let me preface my responses by saying I am not bashing imported dogs. Most recently I have been quite impressed with the return to correct conformation that I see in many imports. Sorry Guys !!! The Americans have their 'American' type, which is an over-long dog, with overlong stifle and a straight back that slopes at about 40 degrees. My response: Although I have said this many times I will repeat myself here. There was a time when there was no difference between American & German dogs. A straight or level back is correct for the breed. If you compared the structure of the American dog vs the German dog you will find the American type is still much closer to the standard. Even the Germans have a 'split' in the breed between Working and Show type dogs!!! My response: Based on the standard there should be no difference, conformation wise, between a working dog and a show dog. From the foregoing, you may say - Ahhh!, those are the words of a 'German Type' enthusiast....But no, I personally feel that all types in the show ring are 'extremes', just as clothing is on the fashion catwalk, or 'concept cars' are at an International Motor Show. For me I favour a 'Crossover' Dog, which is one that has taken the good points from all 'types' and lost all extremism, and which could be shown in either camp. My response: Here I agree with you. This the only way to mend the terrible rift in our breed and for us all to be able to exhibit again without having to scrutinise who is the Judge at the next show and will they like 'my type'? Oh, It is a 'German Type' Judge - he won't like my dogs!!! What d**n nonesense !!!! My response: Even when you couldn't tell an American GSD from a German one you still had judges with different preferences in type. IMHO this is something that you will always have to deal with. This is one breed, with one standard (other than the one that the Americans have written to suit themselves), and once we accept that fact, this breed can move forward again, or else it is doomed to split even more and move into oblivion. My response: Since the American GSD is much closer to the standard why doesn't the FCI & the SV borrow from our standard? After all they are now breeding dogs that are again looking like our dogs. Kind regards John |
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Post by whizzie on Dec 23, 2003 20:49:35 GMT -5
Here comes a somewhat intrepid contribution to this thread from a relative newcomer to the world of breeding.... I think we are all agreed that in breeding any animal we should be looking to improve on what we already have. Our personal idea of improvement may vary, but we have the breed standard as a (good) guideline. If we don't get our act together and aim for ONE standard we will get further and further apart in the type of dogs we produce. It seems to me that line-breeding is heavily relied upon to try and reproduce preferred attributes in certain breeding programmes. Forgive me if I'm wrong, (and I hope I am!!! ;D ;D )... but isn't linebreeding just an "acceptable" name for inbreeding? And isn't that what causes genetic problems in the first place? Human nature is a funny thing; maybe it's just in the U.K., but I wish I had a tenner for every time an unambitious dog owner has said to me that they think the runt of the litter is usually the best dog... loyal and loving... (of course!) but best? By whose "standard? Now I shall duck and run>>>>>>>>>>>  Wishing a very Merry Christmas and a Joyous New Year to all bipeds and quadrupeds, whatever your persuasion!!! |
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 23, 2003 21:07:31 GMT -5
Why take part in a topic that is a sure no-win situation? People always bash stereotpes that are not what they prefer. Reason has little to do with it. It matters little if you are talking dogs or people.
Peace of Earth - enjoy your dogs.
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Post by Smithie86 on Dec 24, 2003 10:36:00 GMT -5
I think it also depends on exposure and experience.
I am for German lines, but will also take the time to go to (and occasionally show) in AKC all breed shows. I met Kathleen Strong of Inflight Kennels a few years ago in WA for the USA Sieger show. She was a great person to talk to and we had a really good conversation on likes and dislikes. She also picked out the VA1 female from the time she walked on the field and this was her 1st SV show...:-)
We have mostly all working lines males(German, very intense), but will show and koer them in the SV show ring. We have one show female that is very balanced in her structure and intense in the work (97 in protection and will trial for her SCH2 after baby (mine) is born). We just got a young show male (karly A grandson) that was originally selected for police work and is excellent on the temperment, structure and working ability (huge ball drive). Husband ( who is a diehard working lines man and high level competitor) really likes this young male.
So, it can also depend on what you have seen and experienced. A lot of people will state opinions on lines (working or show, etc), but have never seen/worked the dogs in questions or progeny of the dogs.
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 24, 2003 13:35:16 GMT -5
I am for German lines, but will also take the time to go to (and occasionally show) in AKC all breed shows. I met Kathleen Strong of Inflight Kennels a few years ago in WA for the USA Sieger show. She was a great person to talk to and we had a really good conversation on likes and dislikes. She also picked out the VA1 female from the time she walked on the field and this was her 1st SV show...:-)  There were a number of AKC breeders, including a number of top "specialty show" breeders, and everyone I talked to said the same thing - "I'd take that bitch home any day!" And we all said so the instant we saw her! That's my point all along - when we bash certain generic types, it is really the stereotypes we bash. Stereotypes are always exagerations. The minute we accept stereotypes as the truth, we turn off our brains and rant based on emotions. |
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Post by geronimo on Dec 24, 2003 15:36:33 GMT -5
I haven't said much because, after starting in the breed in 1964 (with successful crosses of German and American lines), I grew to detest the American specialty show GSD. I suppose one of the main reasons is because of the multiple health problems I associated with certain winning bloodlines. When I worked as a vet tech in private practice, at a large emergency clinic, and at the UC Davis VMTH, I can't begin to tell you about some of the genetically predisposed health problems presented by many well-known breeders and AKC judges. We did not see these same problems in dogs from German lines--not that German dogs are free of health problems.
On the other hand, many of us in the USA now exclusively into German bloodlines (including Ricardo, I believe) who really appreciate the finer nuances of correct structure, proportions, and movement had our start with American showlines.
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Post by ovejero on Dec 24, 2003 17:16:52 GMT -5
There is never a black and white answer to issues like this. I started actually in the German lines in my home country. When I moved to the US, I could find no such thing where I lived. Ther were only AKC shows and American lines. It was not until 1990 when the first Sieger Show was held in the US that I dropped American Lines and went back to what I enjoyed most.
Although I dissagree with the type of dog and breeding phylosophy of the American specialty person I have to applaud their cohesion and their desire to create a product that is consistent and unique to their own liking. That is more than we all can say regarding the German lines in our country.
After close to 100 years of breeding German Shepherds in the US, after becoming the number one produncing nation of GSD puppies in the world, we are still completely and hopelessly dependent on Germany for much of our breeding program. The American breeder can at least boast of the one thing-- they truly have an independent national breeding program that does not ride on the coat tails of foreign breeders.
As you can probably tell, this is a very sore spot with me. The majority of the US breeders (myself included I might ad, however at least I am conscious of the problem) lives and dies for the next import, for the next purchase, for the next bitch they can ship back to Europe to be bred. We have no national program, no destination, other than what is being defined for us and sold to us.
Just look at what we write about: Who is your favorite dog?? Well german dogs of course. What bloodline do you use?? Well, german lines, of course. Where are our own lines bred in the US? Where are the favorite dogs born here?? What is our destination?? Just to keep buying more and more and forever?
The Germans put it very well. A high ranking official from Germany once said: "The US is like a milking cow, we give it a little bit of grass and we can milk it forever". This is truly a phenomenon that only happens in this country and it puzzles me to no end. Every other country you go to have their own program, judges, statistics, registry. THey move in an autonomous fashion from Germany in every way. Their imports are few and far between and they use them properly to satisfy well structured needs and for a desire to upgrade and be more diverse.
In this country we are an extension of Germany. Even our judges here (myself included) do not even get used because somehow we are under this illussion that if it is not a foreign, SV judge what we do "does not count" and will not be good enough.
So before we bash or downgrade anyone elses' efforts in the breed, even if we don't like the product they created (as I don't in the case of the AKC style dog), we must take a hard look at ourselves and see our own reality.
This is said very respectfully, and I hope that those who read can overlook the tone of frustration and truly recognize that my concern if for the breed in the US. It is not imports that will eventually give us the satisfactions as breeders, is learning how to do it. Our current state is tantamount to the old parable of the man who was better off learning how to fish than to be given fish to eat only to keep him dependent on charity forever.
Merry Christmas
Ricardo Carbajal
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 24, 2003 18:05:03 GMT -5
The difference between linebreeding and inbreeding is well established. Many of us believe that linebreeding is the best way to retain the qualities that you want and imprint them in your bloodlines. Inbreeding or linebreeding doesn't cause genetic problems. The problems had to already have been present in the dogs being used. In line or inbreeding the breeder must be aware of the gentetic makeup of the dogs being used in the breeding program. If the dogs & bitches being used have the same genetic deficiencies (health, temperament or structure) then these problems will have a better chance of appearing in the progeny of these types of breedings. With reagrds to structure there really is very little difference between most GSD standards. The big differences are in what the breed clubs & show ring judges in each country permit with regards to deviation from their standard. If the breeders in every country adhered to their standard you would find very little conformation differences between countries. If we don't get our act together and aim for ONE standard we will get further and further apart in the type of dogs we produce. It seems to me that line-breeding is heavily relied upon to try and reproduce preferred attributes in certain breeding programmes. Forgive me if I'm wrong, (and I hope I am!!! ;D ;D )... but isn't linebreeding just an "acceptable" name for inbreeding? And isn't that what causes genetic problems in the first place? |
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 24, 2003 18:11:21 GMT -5
Ricardo,
What I don't understand is since so many Americans have sent bitches overseas to be bred for quite a few years why aren't there enough of the offspring from these breedings to establish solid breeding programs here and eliminate the need to go overseas to breed to or buy dogs?
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Post by ovejero on Dec 24, 2003 20:12:49 GMT -5
Yes, Norm. Good question. The answer is complex. We have to start with the quality of the females we are sending. Many of them already come from Germany. I can speak for myself and my experience. Of the half dozen females I have purchased from Germany over the years, the vast majority of them were absolute proven failures in breeding. In other words, they already knew when they sold them that there were major problems with them. I can list a few of the problems in my own purchases or co-ownerships
Rana Babilon (Zito Noriswand daught) Got pregnant with one or two puppies at most at the age of 3. By age four was sterile
Geisha Murrenhutte (visum daughter): Had major immune problems and passed them to her puppies.
Dixie Messebau: (Uwo Wienerau Daughter) all male puppies were monorchids or chriptorchids.
Diana Herbsteiche: (Uran daughter) Gave horrible nerve problems in her puppies.
Iris Klostermoor: (Jeck Noricum daughter) This is my personal favorite. Had a fake "a" stamp normal. She had hip dysplasia and gave about 60% displastic puppies before we could figure out what was going on.
You can ad up for yourself the thousands of dollars that went down the drain for years and the waste of time and effort. You can also ad up the heartbreak of the people who inherited the puppy problems from these "top imports".... And... these dogs were attained through people who I trusted and who "liked me"!!
Well, not everyone has the same bad luck as I did. I am sure that someone has a top female from Germany who is the "goose of the golden eggs," but believe me.. it is a rare occurence.
It is complicated because you have to start with something, but I believe the key is to shape your own program and develop a good maternal line of your own that is healthy and strong.
In my personal story I have to admit I got totally fed up with the corrupt export market and I started over. I placed all my breeding dogs from the past, changed my kennel name, and started over this last year with the letter "A". Sometimes you need a clean slate... So far so good.
You simply cannot breed with "half the genes" even the best producer from Germany cannot do miracles with a poor female producer. In my mind, the mother is far more important than the sire when it comes to having a good chance at getting a top dog. What we don't have in this country is good mothers. Walter Martin knew this very well. If you read the article I wrote of the interview I did with him he said: "you start with the worst female out of the best family" I asked why the worst, and he smiled as only he could do and added "because no one will sell you the best..."
RC
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 24, 2003 22:44:16 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying about the Germans not selling us their best. In the late 60's I bought a 2 year old bitch from Germany (Dina aus Wattenscheid). She had a litter sister that also came her and finsihed her championship. I bought my bitch through a (supposed) friend who was a professional handler/importer. From a conformation point of view the bitch looked like a GSD from the 20's. She had absolutely no angulation. I bred her to GV Lance of Fran-Jo and the puppies in the litter either had hip or elbow dysplasia. I bred her again to a male of my own with the same results. During this same time I bought a bitch puppy sired by Ch. Tannenwald"s Igor who became my foundation bitch. Although you had many dissapointments with the bitches that you bought I find it hard to believe that with all of the other animals imported over the last 25 years none were good enough to establish sound breeding programs in this country. Did you start over with imported animals or with animals bred in this country? I strongly diagree with Geronimo when she refers she says " I haven't said much because, after starting in the breed in 1964 (with successful crosses of German and American lines), I grew to detest the American specialty show GSD. I suppose one of the main reasons is because of the multiple health problems I associated with certain winning bloodlines. When I worked as a vet tech in private practice, at a large emergency clinic, and at the UC Davis VMTH, I can't begin to tell you about some of the genetically predisposed health problems presented by many well-known breeders and AKC judges. We did not see these same problems in dogs from German lines--not that German dogs are free of health problems." If she started, as I did, in 1964 with dogs that were successful crosses of American & German blood why is it that both I and the breeders in my area did not have health problems with our dogs? The dogs of that time (on the east coast) had predominantly German lines close up in the pedigree. From what I understand the health problems on both sides of the Atlantic began in earnest decades later as the pedigrees started closing up and narrowing. I still feel that the way to stengthen the breed is by breeding those animals together (imported & Am bred) that come closest to the standard and come from healthy lines and go on from there. This is how the great dogs of 40-50 years ago were produced. It is a tried and true formula. Yes, Norm. Good question. The answer is complex. We have to start with the quality of the females we are sending. Many of them already come from Germany. I can speak for myself and my experience. Of the half dozen females I have purchased from Germany over the years, the vast majority of them were absolute proven failures in breeding. In other words, they already knew when they sold them that there were major problems with them. I can list a few of the problems in my own purchases or co-ownerships RC |
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There were a number of AKC breeders, including a number of top "specialty show" breeders, and everyone I talked to said the same thing - "I'd take that bitch home any day!" And we all said so the instant we saw her!