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Post by Mary on Dec 25, 2003 15:14:04 GMT -5
I had planned to bred my bitch Widget to Ursus v Batu because of the line breeding.....A friend found Quaro here in the US...I thought about using him until I heard the stud fee $1500, now add in $1200 for airfare, I think not.... Here is what the line breeding would have been........ Linebreeding for the progency of Quaro von Batu and Widget v Bullinger Linebreeding - 5 generations
* 4 - 4............................................. in V Cello von der Römerau * 3 - 3............................................. in VA Zamb von der Wienerau * 5,5 - 5........................................... in V Häsel von Tannenmeise * 5 - 5............................................. in VA Axel von der Hainsterbach * 5 - 5,5........................................... in VA Uran vom Wildsteiger Land * 5 - 4............................................. in V Quina von Arminius * 5 - 5............................................. in V Lissi vom Hermannsgrund * 5,5 - 5........................................... in VA Quando von Arminius * 4 - 4............................................. in VA Ica von der Wienerau * 5 - 4............................................. in VA Eiko vom Kirschental * 5 - 5............................................. in VA Natz vom Hasenborn * 5 - 5............................................. in V Quana von Arminius * 4,4 - 4........................................... in VA Odin von Tannenmeise
One thousand dollars less to send a bitch to Germany to a top male. Could this be one reason we sometimes ship to Germany? I've to date sent one bitch to Germany for breeding, but do try to bred to a German male if my bitch is already in Germany....Makes sense to me.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 25, 2003 15:22:16 GMT -5
"I had planned to bred my bitch Widget to Ursus v Batu because of the line breeding.....A friend found Quaro here in the US...I thought about using him until I heard the stud fee $1500, now add in $1200 for airfare, I think not...."
So, who did you breed Widget to? A paper linebreeding is simply that--a piece of PAPER--nothing unless you know the genetic propensities of the individual animals.
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Post by Mary on Dec 25, 2003 15:39:22 GMT -5
Exactly right everything can look good on paper, breeding is like shooting craps!! You never know. Widget hasn't come into season yet. When she does we will bred her to a stud that we had planned to last year. This well may be her last litter it will be her 5th, & she just turned 7.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 25, 2003 16:11:20 GMT -5
Interesting....I checked out Widget's picture and pedigree: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/126120.html. Perhaps you are lucky not to breed to Ursus (or brother Quaro). From such a breeding, I would tend to predict in my crystal ball some incidence of: short upper arm, incorrect shoulder placement (too far forward), somewhat short croups, inadequate rear angulation, lack of uniformity in pigment (few, if any, pups as dark as Ursus)--IMO--however, we are only looking at pictures. I have a pretty good idea what Ursus produces. Only you know Widget's genetic potential. Often, the better breedings with Ursus are type-to-type rather than compensatory. If you want the Ursus bloodlines, I would tend to breed to one of his better sons (without the faults he possesses or produces) in the United States or in Germany--such as Sarko (the BEST moving Ursus son I've seen) or Whiskey.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 25, 2003 21:47:25 GMT -5
Ricardo, The German (SV) strength is also their weakness. When you have a central body, like the SV, telling breeders what is acceptable or not the individual breeder loses his power of choice. What did the breeders who knew better do when the SV decided it wanted dogs with bowed backs, short necks & croups, lack of angulation, orange instead of tan, etc? All of those deviations from the standard were encouraged by the governing body. Although there are certain aspects of the SV way of doing things that I like for the most part I prefer the independence allowed the American breeder. An ethical breeder with a trained eye and true knowledge of the breed and genetics doesn't need a central committee to advise them on how to manage their breeding program. I disagree with you that bloodlines are not important. You said "The point is that the key is not in the "bloodline" as much as it is in the set of Genes that dog carries. Actually you are contradicting yourself. Genes is really another way of saying bloodline. Over the years there have been certain bloodlines that have clicked and produced superior animals in many breedings. How many times have you seen a bitch that looked very ordinary in type & conformation wise but came from a proven producing bloodline and turned out to be an excellent produce herself? I have seen it many times. Breeding is no different from other aspects of life. You can have all of the knowledge in the world, do all of the right things but if you don't have some luck on your side you will not be successful. A program is an organized, centralized body capable of bringing breeders together under a single umbrella and guided by leadership based on a national judges program, a breed warden program, and sound statistical analysis of what is happening with each and every stud, each and every litter, and each and every breeder. If we ever wished to "copy" the germans on something, that should have been it. It is the key to their power and their success. Ricardo
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Post by geronimo on Dec 26, 2003 0:34:24 GMT -5
<I disagree with you that bloodlines are not important. You said "The point is that the key is not in the "bloodline" as much as it is in the set of Genes that dog carries. >
Norm, I believe that Ricardo was was trying to illustrate that Quaro Batu, the full brother to Ursus, does not possess the same genetic makeup or producing ability of Ursus.
Otherwise, I agree with you that we don't need the statistical analysis of a committee to assist us in breeding in this country--unless we are able to calculate the genome of individual dogs and evaluate genetic makers. Surely, the regional breed warden where I live is in no way competent to advise me in my breeding practices. I am most certain that the National Breed Warden, Johannes Grewe, hasn't sufficent knowledge of the bloodlines (which I refer to as a " dog family" ) of my dogs to advise me how to breed them. Only I have observed them for five generations.
For example, as soon as I scanned the 8-week-old litter from which I selected my last pup, I immediately pointed out one pup and announced that he was the pup for me. This first "gestalt", subjective impression was later born out by evaluating and comparing the pups within the litter. Having an eye for a dog is more an art than a measurable science, IMO. Successfully breeding good dogs is more of a creative process (a form of previsualization) than it is a crap shoot.
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Post by Nightshadows on Dec 26, 2003 1:09:51 GMT -5
After talking to someone about this Could it be Quaro was just not bred to as good of females as Ursus was? The male cannot be blamed for everything. I know no one blamed him but just in general. I keep getting told look at the motherline and I am starting to believe it. How could he produce anything decent if the females he was bred to are crap. Now I am not singling out Quaro here, any male out there will fit this situation I think. <I disagree with you that bloodlines are not important. You said "The point is that the key is not in the "bloodline" as much as it is in the set of Genes that dog carries. > Norm, I believe that Ricardo was was trying to illustrate that Quaro Batu, the full brother to Ursus, does not possess the same genetic makeup or producing ability of Ursus.
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Post by Schaeferhund on Dec 26, 2003 6:39:18 GMT -5
The German (SV) strength is also their weakness. When you have a central body, like the SV, telling breeders what is acceptable or not the individual breeder loses his power of choice. No one tells a german breeder what is acceptable and whan not He's got full power of choice, like any other breeder anywhere in the world. The only people that "change" appearance of the breed are the judges, and that is in Every country. People want to breed winners.
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Post by ovejero on Dec 26, 2003 11:23:27 GMT -5
OK, we can forget the illustration of Quaro. Let's use another, Illo Bergmanshoff, full brother to the Sieger in Germany Isso Bergmanshoff. this illustrates a similar point. The dog was purchased by US breeders and was used very heavily in this country with very minimal results.
The point made is simple: "Bloodline" is a blanket statement, it depicts dogs' "potential" value based on lineage, parents, grandparents and so on. All that is wonderful but only as factors of prediction: Once the dog begins to breed, and patterns are established, once the dog has several litters with many different females "Bloodline" as a predicting factor dissappears and "what is" appears.
Originally the topic was about why we don't have more success in this country. The first point I made was that that in general (and very smartly I might add) Germans mark a dog for export after they realize his potential for breeding is minimal. The price reflects the fame and fortune of a "bloodline" and he or she is sold to us based on this "promise" which they already know is not a reality.
The second problem of our lack of success is that we don't have a system to "decode" the genetic potential of dogs through statistical analysis because we do not have an organization capable of doing this. The GSD world in the US is fragmented into three different camps and no one knows who is doing what.
Finally it is a geographical problem as Walter Martin said many times. It is impossible to create a strong program when you would need three months and thousands of dollars to go see everything that Tito is producing nationwide. In Germany you see this in a single weekend in three shows in three different parts of the country.
Unfortuanately my free time is up and I won't be able to post for a while. Good talking to all of you.
RC
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Post by geronimo on Dec 26, 2003 13:56:36 GMT -5
"Finally it is a geographical problem as Walter Martin said many times...In Germany you see this in a single weekend in three shows in three different parts of the country."
I agree about Ricardo on the geographical issue as Germany is roughly the size of the state of Texas. Even so, what one "sees" in Germany (or at any breed show, for that matter) on a given weekend may be fairly subjective (and may depend on the flavor of the weekend).
In the United States, SV judges (or even USCA judges, for that matter) haven't a clue about most American bred dogs (or their producing ability) unless a large kennel is promoting a certain stud and breeding every bitch available to the same male. The safe thing for the SV judge to do is to put up the German import over his American-born half-brother. Don't forget that these SV judges also hope to sell more of their German dogs to American importers. These same judges enjoy traveling, wining, and dining. Sour grapes? Human nature? Maybe--but definitely, REALITY.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 26, 2003 15:16:56 GMT -5
I wouldn't pay a $1500 stud fee if the dog lived across the road from me. What makes any dog worth $1500? I know of American line bitches being bred to German dogs with nice results. Does anyone know of German bred bitches being bred to American line dogs? I had planned to bred my bitch Widget to Ursus v Batu because of the line breeding.....A friend found Quaro here in the US...I thought about using him until I heard the stud fee $1500, now add in $1200 for airfare, I think not.... Here is what the line breeding would have been........
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 26, 2003 16:51:00 GMT -5
I know of American line bitches being bred to German dogs with nice results. Does anyone know of German bred bitches being bred to American line dogs? That's what we do -- Ch Jess, Ch Leah are the results of American Champions being bred to import bred bitches. So is Quasar, the police dog and Lars, the avalanch dog. Take a look at our site and you will see. We elected to do that as we felt there were more males from American lines to select from here than suitable Imported males.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 26, 2003 18:34:29 GMT -5
"I know of American line bitches being bred to German dogs with nice results. Does anyone know of German bred bitches being bred to American line dogs?"
My answer is that I would NEVER do this! What a WASTE! There are plenty of OUTSTANDING German studs around to complement good German lines females. What is the difference in this than breeding an American bred bitch to a German male? Sure, you will get better feet, temperment, larger teeth, and richer pigment. I surely did. I also got dogs who earned SG ratings in the breed ring with SV judges, schutzhund titles, and were excellent herding dogs. However, I got something that was neither fish nor fowl. Such dogs would never be able to compete credibly in the Working Classes under SV judges or become breed surveyed. Yes, in certain instance, they may compete successfully in AKC show or performance venues--or become service dogs--if that is what people want.
Even back in the late 50's, 60's, and 70's when Amercan bitches were successfully bred to German males, none of their progeny could have competed credibly in SV style shows had they existed in this country, obtained SchH3, of have become breed-surveyed. I was around in those days--I know what I'm talking about--I started off with these "half-breeds".
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 26, 2003 19:19:00 GMT -5
Fortunately, Louise, I like them. As long as you like yours, I will not object to what you do either.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Dec 26, 2003 19:22:24 GMT -5
Geronimo, I didn't ask for predjudiced opinions I merely asked if anyone knew of German bitches bred to American males. As for it being a waste, that is just one person's opinion you see not everyone is interested in doing schutzhund. Some of us are more interested in producing the best structured GSD that we can. We also don't consider competing in the AKC showring or other venues something to be ashamed of. I do not consider the dogs of the 50's thru 70's that were a combination of American & German lines "half-breeds". Neither did the many SV judges of that time who came here and judged American breds competing against imports on an even footing. I was around in those days too. Many of those dogs were superior specimens of the breed and outstanding producers. Someone who truly loves the breed and is cognizant of genetics and proper breeding practices would never close themselves off from breeding to any stud not matter their country of origin. "I know of American line bitches being bred to German dogs with nice results. Does anyone know of German bred bitches being bred to American line dogs?" My answer is that I would NEVER do this! What a WASTE! There are plenty of OUTSTANDING German studs around to complement good German lines females. What is the difference in this than breeding an American bred bitch to a German male? Sure, you will get better feet, temperment, larger teeth, and richer pigment. I surely did. I also got dogs who earned SG ratings in the breed ring with SV judges, schutzhund titles, and were excellent herding dogs. However, I got something that was neither fish nor fowl. Such dogs would never be able to compete credibly in the Working Classes under SV judges or become breed surveyed. Yes, in certain instance, they may compete successfully in AKC show or performance venues--or become service dogs--if that is what people want. Even back in the late 50's, 60's, and 70's when Amercan bitches were successfully bred to German males, none of their progeny could have competed credibly in SV style shows had they existed in this country, obtained SchH3, of have become breed-surveyed. I was around in those days--I know what I'm talking about--I started off with these "half-breeds".
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