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Post by geronimo on Dec 25, 2003 0:13:56 GMT -5
"What I don't understand is since so many Americans have sent bitches overseas to be bred for quite a few years why aren't there enough of the offspring from these breedings to establish solid breeding programs here and eliminate the need to go overseas to breed to or buy dogs?"
There are plenty of titled, breed-surveyed, V-rated progeny from such breedings. People often don't breed to these dogs because, without the mystique of a foreign kennel name for the stud or from a foreign sire residing abroad, the puppies may not SELL as well. One of the few exceptions is Inger Olavson (a good friend of Ricardo, Kerry, myself, etc.) who has Olympus Shepherds in Utah.
Seven years ago, Inger took a chance and began breeding daughters of Zamb Wienerau, Hanno Wienerau, and Fanto Hirschel to my American born male--then, only a V-rated male with SchH1 KKl 1"a", "a" normal, OFA hips (excellent) and elbows: Alex vom Nord Rasen SchH3 KKl 1"a" lbz, HT, TDI, CDX, CERF, vWD neg.
All of these bitches bred by Inger to Lex produced titled, V-rated progeny. Although it took some convincing, Inger actually kept a bitch pup (V Quiz vom Olympus SchH3 KKl 1"a" lbz) from the Zamb daughter and sired by this essentially unknown male. The bitch has had seven litters (usually shipped to Germany to be bred) and has become an outstanding producer.
Yet how often is that above scenario repeated?? Inger has kept some of Quiz's progeny. Kerry has a V-rated, SchH3, KKl 1"a" Jello Michelstädter Rathaus daughter from Quiz. I have a litter brother from the Jello litter and an Ursus son from Quiz with all the above credentials plus IPO3 and OFA hips (good) and elbows. Ricardo has a litter sired by one of the Ursus sons. But, am I kidding myself? What serious breeder is likely to breed to my males? Not many--they will be more likely to breed to the boys with the "foreign mystique". How often will these males win in the show ring over dogs with the "foreign mystique"?
To make a long story short, I am one of the privileged few to have known five generations of dogs from the same family here in the United States.
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Post by Nightshadows on Dec 25, 2003 3:00:58 GMT -5
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Post by Brittany on Dec 25, 2003 3:24:51 GMT -5
[Defamatory Text Deleted by Administrator]
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Post by ovejero on Dec 25, 2003 10:57:57 GMT -5
Tried, and sentenced all within seconds!! I thought the question was "I wonder if Inger knows..." People, people!! It's Christmas... Brittany wrote: "Inger should be deeply ashame of her self for doing this, especially when a dog came from her own kennel [/quote]"
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Post by geronimo on Dec 25, 2003 11:02:29 GMT -5
"Does Inger fallow in the category of backyard breeder now since she refuses to take back the dog? I'm just curious as I feel that this kind of behavior should be listed on the "back yard breeder list"."
Happy holidays! And, as a young person, although you ar entitled to your OPINION, how can you presume to be the CONSCIENCE of other people (perhaps old enough to be your great-grandmother)? If so, shame on you for being presumptious, IMO! What do you know about a breeder's current age, health, or living conditions? What in heaven's name does this have to do with the subject of "bloodlines"? Would you care to carry your humaniac instincts one step further? Does the stud dog owner bear any responsibility for the placement of dogs in rescue sired by his/her male?
Except for a single pup (which I GAVE to a friend at no charge) whelped in 2003, I haven't had a litter since 1994. To the best of my knowledge, I've never had a dog in rescue. The last dog of my breeding in need of a home had to be placed temporarily with a former neighbor until she could be placed. Could I take in an elderly dog (or RESCUE dog of ANY age--of ANY breeding) today? The answer is a resounding "NO"! The best I could do is to call around to people with facilities to house additional dogs. Taking in another animal would be INHUMANE to it and to my existing canine population of 3 (the same number of dogs that Inger has, BTW).
What exactly constitutes a "kennel"? I don't use runs to confine my dogs--just separate sections of the fenced yard. IMO, keeping dogs kenneled is INHUMANE (as is keeping dogs crated excessively). Otherwise, my guys are HOUSEDOGS (whose barking will not annoy neighbors) which get plenty of training and exercise as the weather permits.
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Post by Mary on Dec 25, 2003 11:05:52 GMT -5
Brittany
Your comment is out of line. You ONLY know what you read on the net!! This is off topic back on or. NO BASHING!! BACK ON TOPIC EVERYONE
Merry Christmas ALL
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GSDnut
Full Member
A Wabbit !!
Posts: 85
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Post by GSDnut on Dec 25, 2003 11:36:30 GMT -5
"A breeder who has no interest in rescue of what he has produced is of no value to anyone, and of even less value to his breed." -- Dr. Malcolm Willis, Author, Genetic History of the German Shepherd Dog
Sorry to prolong the agony of this thread, but could one of Ingers friends please contact her and ask her if it is true that she was approached by the Utah Rescue, and that she refused to take the dog back.
If it is untrue, then she should consider legal action in the form of Public defamation of character.
If it is true, then shame on her!! Not for refusing to take the dog back, so much as showing an interest and actively trying to re-home it. Had she done this - the Rescue would have been less likely to publish such a damaging statement.
I have taken several of my own breeding back without a qualm - Two dogs were placed with the police (one in Gwens area, the Devon and Cornwall Constabulary, the other in London Metropolitan Police). I always prefer to have them back when due to marriage break up, financial problems or whatever rather than them going from hand to hand, or into rescue. And unable to keep them with me, have put them into the nearby Boarding Kennels at my own expense, while I re-home them to a suitable 'for ever' (hopefully!) home.
And, yes - it is Christmas Day - and sadly there are lots of Christmas Presents that will end up in the Dog Pounds or Rescue Centres, or worse still taken out into the country and abandoned in the next few months.
'A Dog is for life - Not for Christmas' is a popular car sticker here!
I appologise for staying with the 'Off Topic' Posts, but feel that some subjective sanity should be injected before putting the matter to bed.
Regards,
John
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Norm
Full Member
Grand Vizier
Posts: 179
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Post by Norm on Dec 25, 2003 11:50:01 GMT -5
Doing a breeding with the main goal of selling the puppies makes the breeder, IMO, a "commercial breeder". A good breeder does a breeding for one reason and that is to upgrade his stock. If a breeding gives you the type of progeny you wanted from the breeding then it is well worth it even if you have to sell top quality puppies as pets. There are plenty of titled, breed-surveyed, V-rated progeny from such breedings. People often don't breed to these dogs because, without the mystique of a foreign kennel name for the stud or from a foreign sire residing abroad, the puppies may not SELL as well. One of the few exceptions is Inger Olavson (a good friend of Ricardo, Kerry, myself, etc.) who has Olympus Shepherds in Utah.
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Post by ovejero on Dec 25, 2003 12:28:40 GMT -5
Norm wrote: "Doing a breeding with the main goal of selling the puppies makes the breeder, IMO, a "commercial breeder". A good breeder does a breeding for one reason and that is to upgrade his stock. If a breeding gives you the type of progeny you wanted from the breeding then it is well worth it even if you have to sell top quality puppies as pets. "
Well said Norm. A breeder should be his or her own first client. No litter should be done with the intent to sell all the puppies for a profit, in my opinion.
But now we are back to issues of "ethics" which is a very difficult road to travel. I personally prefer to discuss the technical aspects of breeding.
The topic had come around to the idea that we have a very difficult time in our country acheiving good breeding results. I posed one of the many problems: the poor quality of both males and females we purchase from GErmany. Ultimately the consumer market is somewhat at fault, like I was, for being too naive, too gullible and too trusting.
We place an enormous weight on "bloodline" as if it was some sort of magical stew that we can concoct to create perfection. I mean look at the names behind the V rated, KKL1, Titled females I discussed before!! Uran, Zito, Jeck, Visum, Uwo... And these were direct daughters!!! The point is that the key is not in the "bloodline" as much as it is in the set of Genes that dog carries.
This is the truest lesson I leaned over the years: That when you are breeding two dogs you are combining 50% from each TEXT FORGET THE LINE!! the father, mother and grandparents of the breeding pair will not come to the rescue. They are only important as far as what the dog in front of you is MADE OF... that is all and nothing more.
As I grow I become less and less impressed by bloodlines, by important names and by the glitter of a pedigree filled with VA dogs. What I am most impressed with are dogs who have the genetic power to pass on the best of traits...whatever the bloodlines are.
Everything in breeding is controlled by genes. A trait only recognizes the commands of DNA, and is oblivious of the trophies their ancestors have earned.
RC
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Post by Nightshadows on Dec 25, 2003 12:46:58 GMT -5
I posted that in hopes a poor 7 year old Shepherd would be taken out of a sad situation and could maybe have a chance at a happy life. It would be nice if you could pass it along to Inger.
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Post by Mary on Dec 25, 2003 12:55:53 GMT -5
I've enjoyed this topic (while it stayed on the original topic), when I could stagger to the computer while recovering from the flu. Thank you RC & all for your thoughts & insights.
I'm sure Inga has been informed!! Please stay on topic now!
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Post by ovejero on Dec 25, 2003 13:06:12 GMT -5
OK, sorry for "hoarding" the thread and writing so much but I just thought of a perfect example of the problems I am trying to illustrate.
Germany regards Ursus as one of the very top lines and himself as one of the very best producers of all times. We could then conclude that a dog similar to Ursus, with the same lines would be just as successful? Well of course we know that this is not the case. But, what if we could breed to a full brother to Ursus? one who inherited the genes from the same identical parents?? Would that not be the next best thing than breeding to Ursus himself? Well, perhaps.
This was actually possible in my home country. We inherited from the Germans Ursus' full brother from a repeat breeding. The dog bred just about every one of the best females in that country for a total of over 200 breedings. Today there is not a single dog representing this sire in the showring....Now that is a fact, no one wished it so, it simply happened that way and there is no amount of breeding or studying bloodlines or linebreeding that is going to change this dog's inability to produce. Now that is not bashing but simply number crunching. That is possible in countries where statistics are available like in Germany and Argentina, therefore breeders can function with unbiased facts and not heresay.
By the way the dog is gorgeous. Arguably much better than Ursus himself in his own structural makeup.
Oh, and he was recently sold.... yes, you guessed it, to the good old USA!! Oh well...
RC
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Post by Brittany on Dec 25, 2003 14:43:28 GMT -5
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Post by VonIsengard on Dec 25, 2003 14:51:10 GMT -5
Perhaps the problem is that people take a first impression to heart and use it to judge an entire line of dogs. If the first west german dog a czech/ddr fancier had experience with was low drive and gun-shy, that oftens makes a person instantly judge that type of dog. I, for example, have hade many poor experiences with Amer. showlines, which I will NOT detail here, but each one has formed my opinion of that breeding.
Another big reason is, people are gullible. How many people who go on and on and on about how wimpy and unworkable a line is have actually had experience working with a fair number of them? Not many, I assure you.
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Post by ovejero on Dec 25, 2003 14:54:41 GMT -5
I did not mean to be "secretive". (got private mail requesting the name of the dog) Of course I am speaking of Quaro von Batu, the only full brother of Ursus in the US. The point is not really who the dog is. (Perhaps someone will breed to him and get a top litter and I would look stupid. That could happen too.) The point is that bloodlines, pedigrees, linebreeding etc, are simply hypothetical formulas that can never replace the true thing: Empirical observation of the progeny based on a well structured statistical analysis. Until we have this in the US, we will always be breeding in the dark. We will always be dependent on the wonders that a pedigree can suggest about the dog we just bought. If you want one single reason as to why we have been breeding for 100 year without any real results... that is it, we have not taken ownership as a country of the responsibility of creating our own program.
A program.. is not a bunch of shows scattered about the country or a group of breeders competing for top kennel, or a couple of organizations splitting memberships, or even two Sieger Shows in a single nation!!
A program is an organized, centralized body capable of bringing breeders together under a single umbrella and guided by leadership based on a national judges program, a breed warden program, and sound statistical analysis of what is happening with each and every stud, each and every litter, and each and every breeder.
If we ever wished to "copy" the germans on something, that should have been it. It is the key to their power and their success. By the time a certain stud dog is three or four years old, his genetic make up is laid open like a gutted calf for all to see. In fact the value of the dog is known by the breeders, word of mouth, before it hits the statistical analysis of the SV. Unfortunately for those of us who do not have access to it, do not speak the language and do not enjoy being in the "inside" channels of Germany, that information is ellussive at best.
Well, I have said enough for two days and I don't know if there is much more to say about this on my part. I hope nothing was offensive to anyone, so have at it guys...
Ricardo
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