Norm
Full Member
Grand Vizier
Posts: 179
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Post by Norm on Dec 26, 2003 19:26:20 GMT -5
Ruth, I went to your site. I particularly like Jess. That's what we do -- Ch Jess, Ch Leah are the results of American Champions being bred to import bred bitches. So is Quasar, the police dog and Lars, the avalanch dog. Take a look at our site and you will see. We elected to do that as we felt there were more males from American lines to select from here than suitable Imported males.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 26, 2003 19:50:02 GMT -5
"Fortunately, Louise, I like them. As long as you like yours, I will not object to what you do either. "
Good for you--stick with what suits you. We all have that prerogative. Ruth, I have known you for at least 35 years. Ah, you remember my "half-breeds" : My Ch Tucker Hill's Oracle UDT and his sister Ch Tucker Hill's Opel 'N' Mink UD. It's not that they were not quality dogs, too, or that I didn't love them. It's just that I have grown beyond AKC and am having entirely new and rewarding experiences within the breed.
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Post by freundhund on Dec 26, 2003 21:20:43 GMT -5
As the debate has changed. I will now put forward MHO. With the analogy of Racehorses you can breed a champion racehorse who does a lot of winning. Then the mating is repeated and the repeat mating includes the foal being of the same sex. However, the second foal never wins, this is because he comes from same DNA as his older brother but his DNA is laid down differently. If both horses are put to stud you have more chances of the one who has won races putting down fast foals because of the way he carried his own DNA. His brother is unlikely to be a successful because his DNA was not for as much speed. So even if you mated both horses to the same mares the first horse will have a much higher percentage of winners. (Someone might know where this study was done I read the study retained the information in my head and didn't keep a copy of the study. I think it was an English study). So with the two dogs you are comparing even if identical in looks what they produce has to be different as the DNA is laid down differently. IMHO you would have to look at the prodeny of both dogs to see which put down the attributes your bitch needs, without exacerbating her faults. If you know what faults you bitch has and throws. It is easier to chose a dog for her. ( 2nd and subsequent matings) For a first mating if there is a "suitable" dog within easy distance of home that I know, what his faults and virtues are I will use him to see and evaluate my own bitch's progeny. Choosing a stud dog has to be everyones personnel opinion as like Judges what we see in one dog is not necessarily what others see. Unfortunately people will always bag someone or someones lines / stud dog it is basically human nature we might not like it but most people do suffer the little green eyed monster syndrome at some stage or other. <I mean I know how jealous of Janis I am, she has those beautiful puppies from Rikki and Whisky> <grin> People also forget that to be at the top of the tree in any area of endeavour that a lot of effort has gone into it. AND I DON"T JUST MEAN MONEY. You can buy a champion but it's harder to breed your own. So next time you hear about so and so doing such and such maybe accept that the person who makes the statements is jealous because he/she doesn't put the same effort or commitment into their breeding program. Regards Freundhund
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Post by Currmudgeon on Dec 27, 2003 14:15:22 GMT -5
I wouldn't pay a $1500 stud fee if the dog lived across the road from me. What makes any dog worth $1500? One's belief that the dog in qustion has qualities that one must have in thir bloodlines. I leave it to each reader to determine their own definition of "qualities" and "must have."
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Post by Currmudgeon on Dec 27, 2003 14:25:06 GMT -5
"I know of American line bitches being bred to German dogs with nice results. Does anyone know of German bred bitches being bred to American line dogs?" My answer is that I would NEVER do this! What a WASTE! I think the problem with this is not so much that the animals are incompatible, but that the knowledge bases are incompatible. Breeding is very much a trial and error proposition. If there is a broad knowledge base, then you can learn from other peoples' successes and failures as well as your own. There are innumerable examples of German dogs bred to German bitches. You can see the results of this on any weekend. The number of instances of intelligent breedings of German to US lines is much smaller, and it is doubly more difficult to see the results of these breedings because of the split nature of the US GSD world and the geographic difficulties. So there is no knowledge base. Almost everyone breeding between the lines is shooting in the dark, with a predictably high chance of missing.
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 27, 2003 14:55:31 GMT -5
Freundhund - I am not sure that the racehorse analogy is valid in dog shows as races are objectively judged, shows are subjective. Even trials are subjective.
There are also cases where the higher rated sibling produced nothing of value, while the lower rated sibling produced progeny of very high caliber.
Until we all agree what makes a "perfect" example of our breed, it will still be nothing more than opinions. We all value things differently, and that's why the same dogs do not always win. Otherwise we would have one show a year and then all sit home and enjoy what we have. How boring that would be!
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Post by geronimo on Dec 27, 2003 14:56:46 GMT -5
"There are innumerable examples of German dogs bred to German bitches. You can see the results of this on any weekend."
Dennis, this is what I meant when I said that breeding is more an ART than a measurable science. This is what I meant about the GIFT of "previsualization" (an Ansel Adams-coined term as applies to photography). As for myself, I've been phenomenally blessed in breeding good dogs and in picking pups from quality litters.
No, I'm not a well-known person in the breed and haven't always had the wherewithall to promote/campaign dogs most effectively. The latter is a "given". Neverthless, I would not trade this innate gift for anything. The same gift seems to apply to planning breedings and evaluating litters as applies to photography as an art form or in the making of beautiful ceramic pots, IMO.
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 27, 2003 14:57:52 GMT -5
Louise - one of the first GSDs I ever bought was an Oracle daughter. My, that was a very long time ago!!
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Post by Currmudgeon on Dec 27, 2003 15:01:55 GMT -5
[quote author=geronimo link=board=lines&thread=1071507638&start=51#3 date=1072555006this is what I meant when I said that breeding is more an ART than a measurable science. [/quote]
I concur. If it were a science, we'd all own the Sieger.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 27, 2003 15:06:51 GMT -5
"Louise - one of the first GSDs I ever bought was an Oracle daughter. My, that was a very long time ago!! "
Yes. Ruth, that has to have been ages ago. Would that I had had in those days the knowledge, luck, and educated eye that I have today!
I remember that Al Gibson used to say if he had taken Oracle home, he would have turned out to have had bad hips and/or temperament.
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Dianne
Full Member
A Dog wags his tail NOT his tongue
Posts: 123
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Post by Dianne on Dec 27, 2003 16:28:02 GMT -5
This is a particularily interesting thread..in which I will not comment about the American versus German "thing" at all, as an Aussie, I have limited knowledge of your lines {American} except what I have read in older books I have acquired. freundhund..you are correct in saying we currently have no American lines in Oz...there were several attempts some years ago...possibly before your time..from import semen..A total disaster from what I saw..perhaps incorrect breeding partners and a lovely dog many years back..I saw at one National..forget prefix..he himself looked lovely..not being shown..but then he dissappeared into goodness knows where, and considering the owners that wasn't unheard of. But I know a young dog is soon to enter our shores..so wait..haven't yet seen his pedigree, but have seen pic. And yes, my breeding and genetic choices were "taught" to me by my Grand dad who bred[spelling corrected at 1030] English Shire Horses But back to subject...I have been one to use the best of German line Stud Dogs, to my English Line Bitches to give me the type I now prefer..{my preference}..and now as Norm and others know I linebreed..my decision and each 3rd. or 4th. generation I go out..but always to a dog of similar phenotype..I believe I have been reasonably successful, others may disagree. The reason people "bash" certain lines...green eyed monster, perhaps..who knows, all I know is that many a potentially great dog/bitch has been ruined by the mouthings of one or two people for a fault he/she has thrown because of bad choice of breeding partner. One or two people in this country in the past have "sold" a stud dog as the flavour of the month..only to discover down the track that it was NOT the correct dog for many bitches, and then DICTATED that this dog shouldn't be used for yadda yadda reasons...a little birdie had the wherewithall to stand up in the back of the room and remind this demigod he was the original "sales person".. lead balloons do fly In short..study bloodlines and genetics...[but they can always surprise too]....listen to everyone you can, learn all you can..NOT NECESSARILY FROM G.S.D. BREEDERS..do your own thing..and unless you are going to use or buy from a certain bloodline.. keep mum as always JMHO Di
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Post by gsdoglady on Dec 27, 2003 17:31:42 GMT -5
Diane -- We do what you do - go out to a dog of similar type to what we have. That enables you to broaden the genepool while maintaining the phenotype. Using this method has gotten us a very consistent type.
We are now able to see 2nd and 3rd generation crosses and the consistency remains as we continue to breed type to type.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 27, 2003 20:04:16 GMT -5
"We are now able to see 2nd and 3rd generation crosses and the consistency remains as we continue to breed type to type."
Even compensatory breedings with all German lines are more successful with type-to-type breedings, IMO.
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Norm
Full Member
Grand Vizier
Posts: 179
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Post by Norm on Dec 27, 2003 20:44:30 GMT -5
Dianne, I totally agree with your breeding methods. The most successful breeders that I know of also are practioners of generational line breeding. I will always remember the famous quote from Lloyd Brackett's (Longworth Kennels) pamphlet about breeding "let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on the dam's side." In other words he was recommending a 2-3 line breeding. Here is a link to a site that has a compilation of his writing: www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htmBut back to subject...I have been one to use the best of German line Stud Dogs, to my English Line Bitches to give me the type I now prefer..{my preference}..and now as Norm and others know I linebreed..my decision and each 3rd. or 4th. generation I go out..but always to a dog of similar phenotype..I believe I have been reasonably successful, others may disagree.
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Dianne
Full Member
A Dog wags his tail NOT his tongue
Posts: 123
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Post by Dianne on Dec 27, 2003 22:01:17 GMT -5
Norm thank you I have been searching for that article for ages.. I have now saved it to my favourites and will print. Cheers. Di
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