Why is the standard being ignored?

[Norm]

I have seen many pictures of dogs on this board recently that make me wonder if anyone reads the standard any more. The dogs pictured have backs that are so distorted that it makes me wonder if the animal is structuraly normal. I see croups that are either incredibly steep or appear nonexistent. I see fronts that are pushed up so much they look like Terrier fronts. I see stifles that are so short that the dog's hock is longer then the stifle is long. I wonder how these animals can move correctly with the long flowing gait of the GSD. What is the purpose of breeding animals that look like these? My eye has been trained to compare any Shepherd I see to the standard. Except for their heads the dogs that I am talking about do not come close to resembling the animal described in the standard. Doesn't anyone compare their dogs to the standard anymore? Doesn't anyone read the standard anymore?

[freundhund]

Hi Norm

When you talk about this could you clarity which standard you are referring to.

I am unsure as to whether you are referring to American German Shepherds, German Show Style, German Working Style, English Show Style, Australian Show Style or a mixture of working and show style.

As a person who has only shown shepherds for about 25 years I see that the GSD is a breed that along with most other breeds has evolved.

I believe that if you looked at pictures of labradors, boxers, golden retrievers or even the more ancient breeds like the saluki or pharoh hound they have all changed. People look different as well. As living organisms we all evolve.

The German Shepherd is a breed that evoves and so is able to continue one of the breeds that maintain its place in the public consiousness. I wonder if like myself you sometimes remember the dogs of your younger days with a fondness that causes you to say that the dogs of today don't a have the panache that the dogs of yesteryear have for me.

Norm this is not mean't in anyway to offend this is just my opinion.

Regards

Freundhund

[Norm]

It really doesn't matter which standard does it? Is there a standard that says the GSD should have a high arced back (like a Bedlington Terrier)? Is there a standard that says the dogs should have a terrible croup? Is there a standard that calls for no front or rear angulation? This is not evolution it's revolting.

What's scary is that are people that think that this is the way a German Shepherd is supposed to look like.

freundhund said:

Hi Norm

When you talk about this could you clarity which standard you are referring to.

I am unsure as to whether you are referring to American German Shepherds, German Show Style, German Working Style, English Show Style, Australian Show Style or a mixture of working and show style.

As a person who has only shown shepherds for about 25 years I see that the GSD is a breed that along with most other breeds has evolved.

Freundhund

[Schaeferhund]

It's all the matter of interpertation, Norm.

[Norm]

When a German Shepherd's back is so arched that it looks like a constipated creature in bad need of Ex-lax it isn't a matter of interpretation it is a matter of ignoring one of the basic foundations of the breed. All power is transmitted through the back.

Schaeferhund said:

It's all the matter of interpertation, Norm.

[Schaeferhund]

When a German Shepherd's hind is so overangulated that it looks like a paralized creature in bad need of a wheelchair it isn't a matter of interpretation it is a matter of ignoring one of the basic foundations of the breed.


I will not read this thread anymore, because it is the old argument of American v. European. And it is the matter of interpertation. Those dog can gait and apperantly so can yours, the rest is a matter of interpretation. To you our dogs are ugly, to me yours, I can start with some lines so called workabilty (they wish), and not trying a dog before breeding is a worse ignoring of the basic foundation of the breed than all bad backs, hinds and necks together.

This talk will change nothing.

[Jezzi]

An illustration of the Standard from the GSDCA website:



And now a photo of a male, being finished for his AKC championship, and out of Champion parentage. He is also being used for stud.



Is this the "Standard" as illustrated?

[freundhund]

Jezzi

Thankyou for posting a photo of the breed standard and of a current champion.

I can now see where Norm is coming from. Norm we have to remember that a drawing is an artists impression of the breed standard. However, I believe that the champion that is in the photo is not in anway even close to the idealistic drawing. I will allow that dogs can evolve from a breed standard and in my opinion the standards should be revisited regularly and revised, but this dog has gone beyond a stage where you can say that it is evolution to improve the dog.

This form of gross exaturation becomes extremely sad. One feels that breeders that breed dogs in this style wish to become like their thingyer Spaniel counterparts who have completely created a separate breed. So the question becomes not how different the dog is from the breed standard BUT are breeders of animals of this style trying to create a separate breed called the American Shepherd.

Norm please understand that I believe that you are actually trying to create a debate with reguards to dogs breed under any standard which have become of an extreme distortion to the standard. My comments are not designed to denergrate you but to encourage ongoing and informed debate. As I believe you bring up very relevant comments.

Regards

Freundhund

[geronimo]

"Is this the "Standard" as illustrated?"

Jezzi,

The sad thing is that both of these fairly divergent canine specimens have SOFT backs.

In all forms having STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY, a slightly rounded arch creates this integrity. Examples: a cathedral dome, remains of ancient aqueducts, bridges, an igloo--even Grecian columns (which appear straight to the naked eye) are slightly curved outward to give them strength. Strangely enough, our planet, which also appears flat, is actually rounded and somewhat elliptical from pole to pole. In handmade ceramic pots, the ellipse is the ideal structure because of its increased integrity and resistance to buckling and cracking in the heat of the kiln. Even in dogs, we prefer OVAL bones for the same reasons. In newborn infant puppies, the successful breeder always looks for those with egg-shaped bodies.

[Norm]

Laurie I am by no means defending structural faults that appear in American breds, but the picture that you posted shows a show dog that has been set up by the handler to over accentuate the rear angulation. I am sure you would get a completely different perspective of this animal if it was standing four square or in a natural show pose.


Freundhund you are correct in understanding that I am opposed to any breeders or organization that encourage breeding away from the standard.

What I don't understand is why people don't comment on the faults that I object to in my posts and instead try to turn it into an us vs them thing. If you feel what I say has no validity ok but don't try to deflect it by saying other dogs from other areas are worse.

[Norm]

This is a European dog. Look at his back, croup, front and rear angulation. Now compare him to any standard. This is how a German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be built.

[Norm]

This is Dallas an American bred in the show ring and herding. He is also a top producer. Good dogs are good dogs no matter what country they come from.

[TheDahliMamma]

I think Don has a better shoulder than Dallas does. Dallas's upper arm is too straight. And Dallas has weak pasterns compared to Don.

Although I would tend to agree that Dallas is one of the best looking dogs in AKC I have seen in a long time. Dallas has a masculine head - at last, good color and if he weren't overstacked, he might look a good deal like Don. I hope his rear angulation sets a new "trend" in AKC. As he is working those sheep, he actually looks more like his heritage then most AKC dogs do.

Hail...Dallas. But, my heart goes to Don! ;D

Fran

[freundhund]

Norm

Thank you for posting those lovely photos. Particularly the one with the sheepherding.

I believe that the stance of Dallas in the picture over exagerates his hind quarters.

As I am unable to see how tall the dog is I cannot comment. I feel that he could do with carrying less weight which would assist in viewing his structure more easily. Possibly this dog worked up for a German Style of show could place.

Using the dog Dallas as your template Norm I also feel that with the right handler and training that the German dog could also compete against this dog and not be disgraced . Now comes the BUT it is educating judges to see the dog not where it comes from but how close it is to the interpretation of the standard. Herein lies the problem where does one find the judge that will chose a dog on merit not on country of origin, handler or any of a multiude of other variables.

I believe on the day that no matter what I believe should have one the Judges decision is final and if you are not happy with that judges decision you do not give him/her another entry.

Regards

Freundhund

[Norm]

I'm sure that as long as there have been dog shows there has been exhibitors complaining about the judges. If an exhibitor studies the judges he should know what chance he has under a particular judge.

The point I am trying to make is that with dogs like Don & Dallas's obvious wonderful structure how can breeders persist in breeding the misshapen dogs we keep seeing. IMHO too many breeders and novices just don't know what the standard calls for. If the European breeders bred dogs of Don's type and American breeders bred dogs of Dallas' type then they could compete in the conformation ring and the judges would have no choice but to put up a decent dog.

freundhund said:

Norm

Using the dog Dallas as your template Norm I also feel that with the right handler and training that the German dog could also compete against this dog and not be disgraced . Now comes the BUT it is educating judges to see the dog not where it comes from but how close it is to the interpretation of the standard. Herein lies the problem where does one find the judge that will chose a dog on merit not on country of origin, handler or any of a multiude of other variables.

Regards

Freundhund