Norm
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Post by Norm on Mar 3, 2004 20:59:01 GMT -5
Stef, If it isn't snide or sarcastic then what is it supposed to be taken as? I said many times on the old board that I no longer breed, show or attend dog shows. The last show I attended was last year's Westminster. I have never attended an SV style show but if there was one in my area I would truly like to see it. Now what does this all have to do with anything? Norm, This is not meant as a snide or sarcastic remark - when were you last at a large specialty or national show? Have you seen the dogs that are winning in the AKC/CKC rings recently? Likewise, an SV-style show?
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Post by gsdpal2 on Mar 3, 2004 21:15:18 GMT -5
The reason I post long posts to you is that when I post small statements, assuming that you have the context of what I am talking about, you have no idea what I am saying and talk around the point. With that said, I am also a writer and an instructor of writing. You have to write to your audience. In this case, less is not always more, and it can leave many more questions than it answers since we have such an international board. It is not intended for only you, Norm. I can not ignore the rules of writing since I have been doing it for so long. I want people to understand what I am talking about. Secondly, you assume that all I go to are small town Louisiana shows. That is not true, nor do you have any evidence of its truth. I have studied the breed for many years. I have not bred because I just got married and am on my own for the first time since graduating college. My parents did not share my love for the breed nor would they have allowed me to own several GSDs at once in order to start a good breeding practice. I also did not have money and transportation that it takes to do things the way I feel they should be done. You mentioned that you had a dog handled by Jimmy Moses and you do not have political clout. HE does. It does not matter who the owner of the animal is, Jimmy can be all that the animal needs to be placed. Unfortunately, this is the world that we live in, and anyone who refuses to see the politics in the show world either don’t mind playing the game or are more naïve than I thought. I have just acquired my first bitch from Germany and have a wonderful mentor here in town as well as in her breeder from Germany. I plan to title her and show her. She is already on her way to achieving the obedience I want from her to compete in that arena. When I achieve her titles, she will show. She is the foundation (maybe if she continues to grow the way she has) of our kennel. My mentor has waited 25 years to find animals she considers breed worthy to begin her kennel. I am her partner who will continue the kennel after she retires. I know this is a big responsibility, so I, too, have studied hard and been to many shows and breed events. It is admirable that you believe that any good dog regardless of it country of origin could compete and win big in American shows. It simply is wishful thinking in the present state of the AKC as well as dreadfully idealistic. When was the last time that you actually showed your own dogs in AKC shows? I realize you like to vision it the same way it was when you said American and German dogs both competed on an equal playing field. By the way, the reason I even mention small town shows it that IMO, all shows should be judged on the same standard, but they can not since the quality of animals is not the same. Someone has to win, and the majority of Champions come from these small shows. Only one makes it to the ring in the big shows to represent our breed each year in the herding group. Yes, Dallas has produced many show champions. Few of the ones I have seen look much like him except the bitch shown at Westminster this year. You are right. Much of the imprinting and half of the genes come from the mother. I use the term dog generically as ovejero does also. From now on, to eliminate confusion I will refer to all specimens as animals unless I specifically intend to refer to a bitch verses a dog or vice versa. You ask me who is the ideal dog I speak of? There is NO such animal; however, we all strive to produce this mythical creature. That is the point that sailed over your head! Lastly, what do you not find appealing in the bitch that ovejero posted? Again, just trying to learn as much as I can from as many people as I can! Stef’s question is a legitimate question, Norm. You criticize me for your opinion that I do not attend the proper quantity or quality dog shows, and state what you think is fact about lacking attention to the standard from what? Pictures alone and experience that may be outdated as the show world evolves everyday whether it should or not? I think that you should attend a speciality show and qualify your assertions with the facts that you so wonderfully demand of me! The rules are the same for you as for me! Age is nothing without practical learning experiences. I do my best to gain those experiences. Practice what you preach. You only found it snide because you were offended by it. The only reason you were offended by this statement was because she had a point!
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Mar 3, 2004 22:03:53 GMT -5
Young lady, Please don't think that your short statements float over my head, they don't. You say I talk around a point. What point? If you have a question for me that makes sense, ask it directly and you will be answered in kind. I assume nothing about the shows you attend I only know what you say in your posts. One of the reasons for using a pro handler is because they know their way around the political game. That goes for Jimmy as well as all of the other top handlers. You would have to be a d**n fool not to be aware of that if you are involved in showing. From what I understand there is as much politics in the FCI show ring as their is in the AKC ring. What's your point? It took you partner 25 years to find animals that were breed worthy! Why? In 25 years a good breeder should have established their own lines. What took her so long? What is the state of the AKC that would prevent a good dog from competing in the show ring? Try to answer this one in an unbiased way. Have you ever campaigned a dog in the AKC show ring? If not, I'll understand that you aren't equipped to answer. I last showed a GSD in the late 90's. Now what does that prove? Are you saying that if I didn't attend a big show in the last few months I have forgotten everything I ever knew about the breed? I personally preferred going to specialty shows and not all breeds. I wanted to see as many GSD's as I could and the best were usually shown at the specialties. Stef's question had no reason to be asked because she knew the answer before she asked the question. Hopefully she will say what point she was trying to make. Look let's cut the crap and get to the essence of the matter. You aren't capable of discussing the subject matter in this thread in a calm, unbiased way so you are trying to turn this into a personal attack on me. Either that or you took such a personal affront to the question that I brought up that you went after me rather then dealing with the subject on an intellectual level. Why do you knock Dallas? I would love to own a dog like him wouldn't you? How many of his progeny have you seen? Why do you feel his progeny have to mirror him? Is that how you judge a stud? No my dear the rules aren't the same for you and me. I have seen it and done it. You are just starting out. I would like to hear your conversation in 40 years when you have a lot of experience and some young newbie who thinks he/she knows it all challanges what you have learned the hard way - by doing it. Please feel free to reply, if you do, in short posts. I promise to read them slowly (without moving my lips, so I grasp the full gist of them). Now if you want to debate the subject matter of this thread let's do it if not good night. The reason I post long posts to you is that when I post small statements, assuming that you have the context of what I am talking about, you have no idea what I am saying and talk around the point. Secondly, you assume that all I go to are small town Louisiana shows. That is not true, nor do you have any evidence of its truth. You mentioned that you had a dog handled by Jimmy Moses and you do not have political clout. HE does. It does not matter who the owner of the animal is, Jimmy can be all that the animal needs to be placed. Unfortunately, this is the world that we live in, and anyone who refuses to see the politics in the show world either don’t mind playing the game or are more naïve than I thought. My mentor has waited 25 years to find animals she considers breed worthy to begin her kennel. I am her partner who will continue the kennel after she retires. It is admirable that you believe that any good dog regardless of it country of origin could compete and win big in American shows. It simply is wishful thinking in the present state of the AKC as well as dreadfully idealistic. When was the last time that you actually showed your own dogs in AKC shows? Yes, Dallas has produced many show champions. Few of the ones I have seen look much like him except the bitch shown at Westminster this year. You are right. Much of the imprinting and half of the genes come from the mother. Stef’s question is a legitimate question, Norm. You criticize me for your opinion that I do not attend the proper quantity or quality dog shows, and state what you think is fact about lacking attention to the standard from what? Pictures alone and experience that may be outdated as the show world evolves everyday whether it should or not? I think that you should attend a speciality show and qualify your assertions with the facts that you so wonderfully demand of me! The rules are the same for you as for me! Age is nothing without practical learning experiences. I do my best to gain those experiences. Practice what you preach. You only found it snide because you were offended by it. The only reason you were offended by this statement was because she had a point!
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Post by Wolf on Mar 3, 2004 22:20:56 GMT -5
If it isn't snide or sarcastic then what is it supposed to be taken as? I said many times on the old board that I no longer breed, show or attend dog shows. The last show I attended was last year's Westminster. I have never attended an SV style show but if there was one in my area I would truly like to see it. Now what does this all have to do with anything? Good grief, Norm, get off the defensive horse - since it is neither snide nor sarcastic, it was an HONEST question. I am well aware of the fact that you no longer breed, show, or attend shows - that is the reason I asked the question in the first place, as I was not aware just WHEN you stopped doing so. I am not some troll here to stir up trouble, that should be obvious. A question is a question. Remember who it's coming from!
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Post by geronimo on Mar 3, 2004 22:29:12 GMT -5
Earlier this month, I posted: "In all forms having STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY, a slightly rounded arch creates this integrity. Examples: a cathedral dome, remains of ancient aqueducts, bridges, an igloo--even Grecian columns (which appear straight to the naked eye) are slightly curved outward to give them strength. Strangely enough, our planet, which also appears flat, is actually rounded and somewhat elliptical from pole to pole. In handmade ceramic pots, the ellipse is the ideal structure because of its increased integrity and resistance to buckling and cracking in the heat of the kiln. Even in dogs, we prefer OVAL bones for the same reasons. In newborn infant puppies, the successful breeder always looks for those with egg-shaped bodies. "
In the GSD, a slightly rounded arch to the back does not constitute a roach--not in my opinion or in the opinion of most of the civilized world (outside of North America). A level or straight back does not possess the same structural integrity described in the above paragraph.
I suspect that Norm would describe the toplines in unretouch photos of GSD show dogs owned by many of us (Ricardo, Janis, Kerry, Randy. myself, etc.) as being roached--when, in fact they are not roached in a natural stance. In the judges' critiques and breed surveys, there are often comments about effective transmission through a strong back. Unfortunately, based on observations and personal experience, our dogs would not fare well in the AKC show ring. And, we don't care because we wish to breed to the WUSV standard, compete in breed shows with SV judges, title our dogs, and breed survey them prior to breeding them.
I suspect the topline in the picture of Don has been "enhanced" via Photoshop. Almost all of the photos in the URMA books have been electronically retouched. In many of the photos, one can see a darker line that smooths out the contours of the topline. Because of this, we haven't a clue what Don looks like in the flesh.
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Post by ovejero on Mar 4, 2004 0:37:59 GMT -5
For a moment I would like to turn the argument against myself to make a further point. Norm's critique is welcome in many ways than one. There is a tendency among breeders to "go with the flow" even if at times this flow goes against what seems "sensible" or even reflective of the standard. The roach of some of the dogs of times past is an example of that.
Today we suffer from another sort of craze, the "color craze" as if a good coat of paint can cover up for a million problems within the dog himself.
A typical example is in the "neighbor thread" where the dog Canto is being discussed. Actually Norm himself points out in absolute blunt detail what even judges would say with a little more tact perhaps, but the results are the same.
We get blinded by color, type and pedigree to the degree that we forget to look at the dog as a whole. We automatically assign a greatness that does not belong to any import with an impressive family tree.
The color fetish of today is the upper arm of yesterday. So much we concentrate in a single attribute that we forget that a dog must be a complete harmony of parts, all of which must work together and depend on each other for efficiency.
One thing we must loose as breeders in this country is our innocence and virginity regarding "all things import"(myself included). Ultimately, we cannot call ourselves breeders until such time as we begin to talk about domestic dogs and they are the only thing that occupies our time, our efforts and our fantasies. Otherwise we will continue to be in blinded awe of a pretty red coat and little else.
RC
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Post by freundhund on Mar 4, 2004 7:22:36 GMT -5
Hi Everyone
I am now going to be slightly controversial here and thank Norm. Thankyou Norm, but also to thank Ovejero.
Why? Because for people new to the Shepherd world it has been explained to them what a roach back is and why it came about. Norm has also posted photos of a good American Shepherd so that people who prefer that style can see what they should be looking for. He also posted a photo of a good European Shepherd which will assist those that look towards an animal of that style.
I thank Ovejero for showing how a dog could be setup and look to have a roach and then to have a level back. This in particular helps new people as they hear people around the ring comment "Oh, look at the roach on that dog".
These are all things that we have an opinion of. However new people do not often know what we are talking about, this thread I believe will be of great assistance to them. I myself didn't know why we had developed animals with "roached" backs. But then I have only had Shepherds for 30 years the first 10 purely in obedience.
Now Ovejero has brought into the thread colour this is for a lot of breeders a matter of concern but not all care that we are loosing our glorious sables, our wonderful blacks and stunning bi-colours. Todays dogs are in the colour department all looking like clones. Do we wish to end up with a breed that is only allowed to be one colour black and red gold.
To Norm and Ovejero thank you both for your imput. I believe that some of us have learnt something.
Regards
Freundhund
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Mar 4, 2004 8:59:18 GMT -5
Stef, Please remember this is the internet and one can only read the written word. Unless the intent of a question is clear it is open to interpretation. I have nothing to be defensive about and I couldn't comprehend the reasoning behind your questions. Good grief, Norm, get off the defensive horse - since it is neither snide nor sarcastic, it was an HONEST question. I am well aware of the fact that you no longer breed, show, or attend shows - that is the reason I asked the question in the first place, as I was not aware just WHEN you stopped doing so. I am not some troll here to stir up trouble, that should be obvious. A question is a question. Remember who it's coming from!
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Post by gsdpal2 on Mar 4, 2004 13:28:15 GMT -5
I would also like to thank everyone here for some very in-depth and thought-provoking discussion on our breed. We have lost a lot from our shepherds in many areas; however, we have gained in areas as well. We have gained some more conscientious breeders and buyers through web boards such as these though I hope you will agree we are not completely there yet as still too many breeders breed for money alone and stray from the standard as Norm pointed out in this thread.
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Post by gsdpal2 on Mar 4, 2004 13:30:46 GMT -5
When “newbies,” as Norm calls me, join such boards and have knowledge to contribute are told that their knowledge is not suitable or of much reliability, these new-generation shepherd fanciers and breeders will not only wonder why our shepherd is in such turmoil but will blame such individuals for the condition of our breed. I take offense to such age discrimination as I have never told anyone my age nor does the fact that I recently (a whole year ago, by the way) graduated college and was married reveal anything about my age. I have not shown or titled my dogs YET, but I have not bred them either. I take pride that I have waited till now to take on this endeavor when I have the time and money that are involved to breed properly but also the most knowledge that I can acquire up to this point. I have learned from everyone I have had contact with in this breed. From some people I have learned how not to be kennel-blind, closed-minded, and outwardly cold toward animals and the people who love them. From others I have learned what it takes to know what you want and how to produce it. Most of all I have learned that it takes time, patience, and a love for dogs. What can be said for a person who decides, after owning one run-of-the-mill shepherd, that they want to be a breeder (and do breed that dog) or decide that they know everything from owning one shepherd? IMO, nothing. These people lack the vision, patience, and love for the breed to do any justice to this breed. Perhaps they will get lucky the first time. Well, I have yet to see it in training and through my three years working at Petco. All I have seen from such breeders are dogs with incredibly bad temperaments, weak nerves, and poor conformation.
No, Norm, I have not campaigned a dog in the show ring. I probably never will campaign in the AKC ring either. There is less room, IMO, for learning opportunities since the judge never explains the faults he/she found in your dog. You MAY get lucky to hear comments on the winner, but that is it. The state of the AKC that I refer to is the idea that a dog’s country of origin matters. It should not matter, but it does. The last 10 years that you have not shown does not mean that you have forgotten all that you have learned about the breed just as the fact that I have never shown proves my lack of knowledge. What it does prove is that you have been so far removed from the breed to understand and/or fully appreciate what I am talking about. I love all shepherds – even those who do not comform to standard. That is not their fault. It is people’s fault. I am unbiased in that way since I have owned 2 American shepherds, bought from Pet stores early in my life and many more imports. A dog of American lines like Dallas would not place high in FCI shows nor would Don place high in AKC shows. The judges are biased to country of origin. The reason that I mentioned only Don previously is because you referred to good dogs being able to compete in the AKC show ring on even playing fields. I tried to show you that it does not work that way anymore. Too many people have tried to take an American animal to an FCI show and not only not place high but get rudely treated by European fanciers, and the same holds true for European animals in AKC shows. It is not what I want to see, but I am trying to show you how things have changed. I wish it were still the good ole’ days before exaggerated roaches and over-angulation drove a wedge between the breed, but I realize these are modern times.
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Post by gsdpal2 on Mar 4, 2004 13:31:35 GMT -5
As for my partner, she warned me about web boards. She said that the majority were good people who have a lot of knowledge to contribute and that I could learn a lot from them, but she also said that there would be some who just want to start fights and tear you down. It just takes a discriminating eye to decide what to read. I thought that I could learn something from everyone here. I have, but not what I wanted to learn. I wanted to see the world that Norm saw way back when he still was active in our breed. Unfortunately, that is not the world in which we still live. As for not breeding for 25 years after becoming a GSD fancier, my partner CHOSE to do this for a number of reasons. 1. She had a family to which she CHOSE to devote her time. Her son recently graduated and is on his own now. She has the time it takes to breed correctly. 2. She lived in the city close to good schools for her son where she did not have the space or was allowed to own enough dogs to “begin her own lines.” By the way, any German will tell you that there are no new lines. There are only a FEW lines upon which our breed is built. Prior to owning GSDs, she owned, bred, and showed bassets and rough collies therefore gaining showing experience that you find so d@#* important. From the shows, she gained an appreciation for the shepherd. She purchased and trained her two males to the highest level of personal protection, narcotic detection, and explosive detection; began offering obedience to the public as a certified instructor; and has taught obedience at the Air Force base in our city. Now, she is the most sought after instructor in the state and will soon be the most sought after breeder in our state. 3. She bought 10 acres in the country and several puppies from a well-known kennel in Maine that has the best guarantee that she or I have ever run across in our country. If the dogs did not meet her expectations for training, she would not keep them for breeding. Simply because he is the right color or of the right pedigree did not matter. She also was very picky about things like roach backs, tight feet, short croups, proper angulation, etc. She wants to adhere to the standard as much as possible. She sent three dogs back to the kennels and received a beautiful female. She has been a keeper so far. She also imported a male puppy from Kennel Kirschental and a female puppy from Kennel Merfelder Bruch, both from Germany. They are definitely keepers. She wanted puppies so she could see their whole development and not rely on what other handlers and owners told us about an adult dog. Sure we could have purchased adults, but we were in no rush. She could have been selling pups for years based on her reputation alone, but that is just it. It is her reputation at stake, and she wants to keep it untarnished. Not everyone is lucky enough to find a couple of dogs right off and produce what they want. So now we have our foundation. In a year, after each dog has been cleared of hip problems, had duel registration with the AKC and the SV, and been titled we will have our first litter.
I would love to own a dog like Dallas, Norm. With that said, I did not knock the dog. I clearly said that, IMO, I think his owners or agents should be choosier when selecting bitches for him. I do not know these people personally, so I do not want to offend them, but the females that someone chooses are not of the same quality or better than Dallas. My breeding policy has always been to breed to animals as good or better than what you have. I have seen too many Dallas progeny to count. Only a few look anything like their sire. A stud should pass on type to his puppies. They should look somewhat like him. Yes, that is how the SV and I judge a sire. The progeny groups for Seigers, as I have said before, are there to prove how well the sire produces and what traits he passes on to the pups. If he consistently passes on his own faults, the dog will be penalized for the owners’ bad choices because, the bitch is only half of the package, but she should be of the quality as to help the sire produce good puppies. Let’s face it, the dog could care less if he wins. This is for people to learn.
Now, as for experience and for “doing and seeing.” That could be meaningless unless other education takes place. I have owned and driven a car for many years, but I have not taken the time to learn all the ins and outs of the engine. I would never try to fix it myself or offer anyone else advice on that matter. I have taken time to study this breed so that when the time comes, I will be as well prepared as I can be. One of the best ways to learn is to talk with people with experience and to learn from their mistakes and triumphs. If, I had only talked with one person, yes, I could see how you would claim my information is unreliable. You see, I have talked with MANY people at shows, obedience events, and here on the internet as well as read MANY books and articles from MANY different authors and decided what I thought was most true to the whole truth. So much for doing. I have more knowledge on this breed from owning them all my life and doing research than the average BYB who claims to know it all. Norm, age does not mean anything. In the age where technology allows so much information to become accessible to more people at a quicker rate than the pony express or snail mail, even a young person can catch up to some older people who had to wait for years to obtain that knowledge. Fortunately, most of these older people are willing to share knowledge instead of wallow in their old age and criticize younger people. Norm, you remind me a lot of my grandfather. He is a Korean War veteran and feels that everything from overseas is designed to destroy our way of life. To this day, he will only buy things that are American made. He had missed out on a lot of things because everything here is not the best. My point is not that you dislike foreign-made goods but that your closed-minded attitude causes you to miss out on many things. Younger people have a lot to offer, and you need to face the fact that people just like me hold the future of breed in our hands. Use teaching opportunities to teach not to criticize petty things like age. Rest assured that I know how to do research. That was part of my major in college. In addition, that is why I am here in the first place – to research and learn. If I have something I feel I can contribute, I will. I feel that I have done so in a very intellectual way thus far and plan to continue to do so, but for the future, I will refrain from addressing to you since it is obvious you do not wish to coexist peacefully.
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Post by gsdpal2 on Mar 4, 2004 13:34:34 GMT -5
Sorry for the many posts, but I had a lot to say and felt I needed to say it all now!
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Mar 4, 2004 14:03:25 GMT -5
Kristin,
You were the one that posted "My mentor has waited 25 years to find animals she considers breed worthy to begin her kennel. " When I asked why it took her so long to find worthy dogs you now list a bunch of personal things that prevented her from breeding GSD's. Why not say that to start with. You made it sound as if there were no dogs available that suited her. You say one thing and then when it is challenged you change the whole tenor of your comments. Rather confusing isn't it?
If you read my post it said I last showed in the late 90's. That isn't 10 years the way I learned to count. If you think I have lost contact with the breed since I last exhibited what has changed since then? Not the standard. Not the structure of a correct GSD.
As for my experience, I have been a breeder. Dogs from my kennel have produced champions & ROM animals. I have succesfully handled GSD's. I have served on the Board of Directors of a regional GSD club. I have been editor of a club news letter. I have show stewarded. I have given talks to breed clubs. I have mentored people that are now judges. Please don't knock my experience without knowing my complete background.
It's easy for you to talk the talk, now walk the walk. I too studied and talked to people for years before I bred my first litter but all of the talking in the world still doesn't prepare you for what you can encounter as a breeder. And it does take many years to have all of the experiences that a breeder/exhibitor encounters. When I was young and just starting out in the breed I thought I knew things better then the old fogies. Now that I am an old fogie and still learning I can appreciate what those experienced fanciers went through. Good luck.
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Post by Wolf on Mar 4, 2004 14:06:18 GMT -5
Stef, Please remember this is the internet and one can only read the written word. Unless the intent of a question is clear it is open to interpretation. I have nothing to be defensive about and I couldn't comprehend the reasoning behind your questions. Gee, i'm sorry Norm, I thought when I said that my comment was meant to be neither snide nor sarcastic, I WAS stating the intent of my question. Or lack of malicious intent, anyways. The reasoning was simply my own curiousness.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Mar 4, 2004 14:09:43 GMT -5
Why don't we get this off of my resume in the breed and back to the subject of the thread. Anyone interest in my accomplishments or lack thereof can e-mail me privately and I would be glad to answer their questions. Gee, i'm sorry Norm, I thought when I said that my comment was meant to be neither snide nor sarcastic, I WAS stating the intent of my question. Or lack of malicious intent, anyways. The reasoning was simply my own curiousness.
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