Ursus von Batu

[geronimo]

Without a doubt, Ursus is probably my favorite dog ever--even if not perfect. Recently, I checked out the pictures from NASS which are posted at www.workofartbylynn.com/showphotos.htbml.

Please don't misunderstand me--I have an Ursus son (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124262.html) who is the best dog I've ever owned since I entered the breed in 1964. Fortunately, this dog and his littermates don't exhibit the anatomical problems I'm discussing below. The Ursus son, Whiskey, appears to be free of this problem, too.

My concern is that so many Ursus progeny (males, females alike at NASS and elsewhere) have so little turn of stifle (very little rear angulation) and have NARROW, poorly developed lower thigh musculature, IMO. With this in mind, I would be reluctant to take a bitch with these problems to Ursus or his sons. Also, I would not be bold enough to consider any relatively close linebreeding on Ursus.

What do the rest of you feel about this? Has anyone linebred on Ursus with successful results? Have you gotten any narrow lower thighs or tails that tend to curl or hook to the side?

[Schaeferhund]

No, it's not my observation over here. I think he gives very good angulation, correct angulation, inot the frog-linke hind that we are seeing more and more. (hopefully a reversable developement)
Anyway from the dogs I've seen, my impression was not like yours.

[geronimo]

I'm not talking about a froglike stance--but about the dang lack of turn of stifle, narrow lower thigh with poorly developed musculature. all you have to do is look at some of the Ursus progeny (Gernam dogs, BTW) at the NASS photo site.

[Schaeferhund]

geronimo said:

I'm not talking about a froglike stance--but about the dang lack of turn of stifle, narrow lower thigh with poorly developed musculature. all you have to do is look at some of the Ursus progeny (Gernam dogs, BTW) at the NASS photo site.

I don't know where to look at this site, there is no names or anything. Where exactly are the pix, I' d like to see.

My experience from seeing his progeny at shows here in Germany: i never noticed any particular hind problems.

[LisaH]

I too have looked at the picture's and did not see one picture of an Ursus son or daughter.I was at NASS and did pay particular attention to the Ursus progeny that was there(and there were quite a few)and did not notice any males or females lacking muscle in the thigh.
I have an Ursus daughter who will be 2 yrs old in Feb.she does appear to lack some muscle in the rear thighs at this stage in her life.Nothing major and nothing that can not be worked on.Most likely will come with maturity.

[geronimo]

"I don't know where to look at this site, there is no names or anything. Where exactly are the pix, I' d like to see."

Just click on the various classes to see the to see the dogs (some of which are not identifed).

Here are the show results:
www.cgswdc.com/2003NASS_show_results.htm.

If you like, I can send you privately and Acrobat PDF attachments of the entire catalog.

Ursus himself has a somewhat poorly developed lower thigh (as does Yasko). To see more Ursus progeny pictures, go to this URL:
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/6186.html.

Form your own conclusions. Members of this forum own some of these dogs--may be sensitive to criticism of their dogs--may not see the faults in their own dogs--so, I'm not going to name names.

[JanisN]

[quote author=geronimo link=board=lines&thread=1070315566&start=5#0 date=1070479071 Members of this forum own some of these dogs--may be sensitive to criticism of their dogs--may not see the faults in their own dogs--so, I'm not going to name names.[/quote]

Surely you're not talking about moi??? <grin>

I have an Ursus son and several Ursus grandkids. Rear angulation and narrow thighs lacking muscle aren't the problems I see in mine. Wait... my Whisky puppies... <grin>

JanisN

[Kerry]

I don't know anybody who's serious about producing good GSDs who would rather have his/her ego stroked about his/her dog(s) than to hear truth from those who are "in the know."
There was a discussion on pedigreedatabase about this very topic. There are some comments there, too. Ursus tending to produce incorrect (east-west) fronts and incorrect teeth and more.
Ursus isn't going to be around as a stud forever, and we'll be relying on his best sons. How are Whiskey and other Ursus progeny producing, or is it still too early to tell, for the big picture?
THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE! ;D

[geronimo]

I guess we just have a different blueprint for what constitutes a correct hindquarter. If you don't "see" what I am describing, I guess it's a moot point. Actually, the issues I am discussing are frequently brought home to me when an old friend (with loads of experience in the breed) frequently sends me emails with photos of various Ursus progeny and relatives. When I describe narrow lower thigh, this would probably be referred to as breadth of stifle ("calf" in a human)--anyhow, the part of the leg comprising the musculature surrounding the tibia and fibula--between the patella and tarsus.

[geronimo]

"There was a discussion on pedigreedatabase about this very topic. There are some comments there, too. Ursus tending to produce incorrect (east-west) fronts and incorrect teeth and more."

Ursus himself stood somewhat east-west as a young dog. Many of his progeny outgrow much if not all of this tendency upon reaching maturity. The important thing is that they don't gait east-west. In sidegait, Ursus tended to reach from the elbow rather than from the shoulder--leaving his pastern slightly bent at the maximum point of front extension (with the foot off the ground--"padding"). He probably did this to compensate because his front and rear angulation were not balanced, IMO.

As for incorrect teeth, some Ursus progeny have a slight overbite which also corrects at maturity.

[gsdoglady]

I just spent some time looking at the progeny on the pedigree data base and, based on that fairly large selction of photos, I have to agree with you. Not just the lower thigh, but there are a lot of bad looking croups. Photos are not always a true depiction of the dog pictured, but that's what we have to go by.

[geronimo]

" Not just the lower thigh, but there are a lot of bad looking croups."

Yes, croups may be a tad short (but usually have a correct angle--rarely steep or flat)--some tailset problems.

Ruth, what do you feel about the NASS photos at www.workofartbylynn.com/showphotos.htbml?

What you don't see in the pictures are the occasional dogs with hooked tails. This problem is usually not apparent until pups are 5-6 months old.

Despite the the fact that Ursus is not perfect, he is still my favorite dog. I would breed to him in a flash. The point is, when we know what faults he has and may produce, we may be better educated about what type of bitch to bring to Ursus and his sons.

[Kerry]

I've heard that one of the problems with the teeth are incisors that are straight across, rather than curved.

[geronimo]

"I've heard that one of the problems with the teeth are incisors that are straight across, rather than curved."

Just out of curiosity, how prevalent is this anomaly amongst Ursus progeny? Have others familiar with Ursus bloodlines observed this to be a frequent problem, noted in breed surveys, often discussed in judges' critiques, etc.? Seems somewhat minor in comparison to other faults we've noted--if the dog is otherwise an excellent specimen--especially if the dog has strongly developed teeth, complete dentition, and a correct scissor bite. Personally, I would rather see this than dentition in which the lower, central incisors are out of alignment and notably advanced ahead of the other incisors.

[ovejero]

Dear GEronimo and others. I just wish to make a comment about your observations perhaps to help in the discussion. Your observations are correct but maybe an explanation of the anatomical reasons behind it can help a little.

The development of the width of the thigh is directly related to the lentgth of the croup and has nothing to do with turn of stifle or angulation of the hind quarters. They are two separate problems or issues. The width of the thigh is given primarily by two components, 1) the length of the pelvis from where the thigh muscles hang downward (down from the crest of the ischium comes the front edge of the thigh and down from the point of the illium comes the rear line of the thigh) and 2) the position of the croup which will render a wider thigh if it is placed flat and a narrower thigh if it is placed steep. The proper and most efficient form of a good croup is when it is long and well placed thus giving us a wide, hence muscular, thigh.

Angulation has a lot more to do with the relative lengths of the femur and tibia. That is what gives the turn of stifle. It also has to do with the strength of the ligaments in the ares. Weaker ligaments giving rise to more angulation by the weight of the dog simply overcoming the strength of the springs hodling him up.

A well structured dog has strong ligaments and a ratio of femur to tibia whereby the tibia is slightly longer than the femur, creating a nice, rounded knee and angulation approximating 90 degrees on the retracted leg under the dog when the power stroke begins.

All this can be studied on my video series: The German Shepherd Dog, by CTS. (I am not plugging the tapes since I don't own them or derive real income)

Regarding Ursus and his progeny. your observations are correct for the following reasons. The dog has a short croup regardless of what the judges may or may not say and his angulation is barely complete. In other words, he could definetly show a longer croup and more turn of stifle, something that must be address when breeding to dogs who do not have this, especially Ursus sons.

Thanks for reading

Ricardo Carbajal