Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 14, 2004 18:31:13 GMT -5
I use the term imports to cover all European bred dogs. I have no specific problem with a dog being an import. I do have a problem with the direction taken by European breeders in general and the SV in particular. You mention imports. Does this mean you only have a problem with dogs bred in GERMANY? Or do your opinions spread to German dogs that are bred and shown in the US?
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Post by Jezzi on Feb 14, 2004 18:42:12 GMT -5
This has turned into a very interesting discussion. I would like to remind everyone, to try to keep the flaming to a minimum, so we can all continue to learn and enjoy the many different outlooks, opinions, and expertise from the entire membership. So with that said...have at it!!
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Post by gsdpal2 on Feb 15, 2004 2:42:56 GMT -5
norm, what direction have European breeders and Sv taken towards the breed that you do not agree with?
I totally disagree with your blanket statement that Germans do not sell their best. SOME breeders do not sell their best, but that happens here too. We have purchased a very good, and in fact the pick of the litter, puppy from Kirschental Kennels. He is the puppy Karl Fuller had decided to keep for himself, but they decided to sell him to us. He has turned out to be very correct in temperment and comformation. he is not perfect, but no dog is. he is as close to what we can call perfect, and he will produce well for the kennel.
The FCI standard changed for a reason. It was not to separate themselves from the GSDCA soley. It was to eliminate confusion for us stupid Americans since we obviously overlooked things that were common knowledge for the breed to possess such as fighting drives, proper angulation, and hardness. It has always been a working dog. A working dog can not politley ask the sheep to do what the dog wants. he has to be hard and firm.The standard then had to be specific to eliminate these structural and character flaws that we created. the Germans never thought of creating such a dog.
As for the Germans using Mals more than GSDs, that was a trend in the past. According to my German friend, the Germans quickly learned that the Mals are hyper and not as strong in nerves as the GSD, and they went back to our faithful GSD. The national breed warden who wanted to breed Mals into the breed has been removed from his position. Raisser was trying to add that off-the-wall, never turning off temperment to the dog. It had nothing to do with getting anything back. That was never in the breed to begin with!
I have never done AKC showing, but could you tell me what exactly it proves about a dog except for the fact that the dog is supposed to be measured against the standard for physical attractiveness? Nothing else in the FCI standard is addressed. The AKC is merely a pedigree registry. It is not the founder of any breed. In fact, it takes its standard from teh breed clubs. it seems to me that it is not up to the SV and FCI to keep up with AKC or GSDCA, but for the GSDCA to keep up with what goes on in th SV. Without the SV there would be no standard from which the original GSDCA standard was derived and then distorted.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 15, 2004 13:30:17 GMT -5
gsdpal, I have already stated my dislikes about the majority of European Shepherds i.e., roached backs, low withers, lack of angulation and bad croups. The problem is that people that got into the breed in the last 30 years have only been exposed to dogs of that type and think that they are correct. Well what would one expect them to think if this is the direction the SV has lead them to consider correct. In recent years some European breeders see to be returning to correct level backs, proper angulation, high withers and sloping croups. Why do you think this is happening? Is it possible that they realize that their breed is becoming an ugly, ungainly animal? There has been a National Geographic program on tv recently about man's relationship with the dog. One of the segments showed a schutzhund trained GSD being put through his paces with the female announcer wearing the protective suit and sleeve. After the exercise the dog was very calm and the woman petted and talked to it. This is the way the GSD is supposed to act not be a dog that due to it's "high drive" can't be a house dog or a family pet. This desire for a dog with "high drive" is another way the breed is being corrupted in the search for the working dog. All this talk about the FCI changes being made so that the Shepherd can do what it was meant to do which is herding sheep. What percentage of the breed is actually used for herding? Most Shepherds compete in the venues of interest to its owner. Having a schutzhund, tracking, obedience, agility or conformation title just proves that the breed is capable of being trained to do a great variety of things but it doesn't prove the dog to be a good herding dog. My show dogs besides complying with the conformation aspect of the standard and being beautiful specimens had the stamina to go all day. Could they have been working dogs - more then likely since dogs that I bred ended up working on farms and doing protection work. I just had no personal interest in those areas. The division between the show and working aspect of a breed is not limited to the GSD. These same rifts have occurred in hunting & working dogs. Dog breeds are man made so it stands to reason that some people will be attracted to one aspect of their chosen breeds and some people to other aspects. This doesn't make anyone right or wrong it is just a fact to be faced. You have taken a hard and fast stand that the FCI/SV is better for the breed then the AKC/GSDCA. I could care less for any of these organizations since most of them are only interested in preserving themselves. My interest lies in what is best for the breed and that is in the hands of knowledgable breeders. A person that is a true student of the breed is well aware of how the GSD should look, move and behave and that is what they base their breeding goals on not who can put the most initials before and after their dog's name. norm, what direction have European breeders and Sv taken towards the breed that you do not agree with? The FCI standard changed for a reason. It was not to separate themselves from the GSDCA soley. It was to eliminate confusion for us stupid Americans since we obviously overlooked things that were common knowledge for the breed to possess such as fighting drives, proper angulation, and hardness. It has always been a working dog. A working dog can not politley ask the sheep to do what the dog wants. he has to be hard and firm.The standard then had to be specific to eliminate these structural and character flaws that we created. the Germans never thought of creating such a dog. I have never done AKC showing, but could you tell me what exactly it proves about a dog except for the fact that the dog is supposed to be measured against the standard for physical attractiveness? Nothing else in the FCI standard is addressed. The AKC is merely a pedigree registry. It is not the founder of any breed. In fact, it takes its standard from teh breed clubs. it seems to me that it is not up to the SV and FCI to keep up with AKC or GSDCA, but for the GSDCA to keep up with what goes on in th SV. Without the SV there would be no standard from which the original GSDCA standard was derived and then distorted.
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Post by Wolf on Feb 15, 2004 16:54:00 GMT -5
...a schutzhund trained GSD being put through his paces with the female announcer wearing the protective suit and sleeve. After the exercise the dog was very calm and the woman petted and talked to it. This is the way the GSD is supposed to act... Yes, this is the way a GSD is supposed to act. What lines do you suppose the dog was out of? Edited: Sorry, I forgot my wink.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 15, 2004 18:11:18 GMT -5
If they gave it I didn't hear but the trainer did have a slight accent and gave the attack command in German. Conformation wise the dog didn't look European. Yes, this is the way a GSD is supposed to act. What lines do you suppose the dog was out of?
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Post by Wolf on Feb 15, 2004 18:27:47 GMT -5
They probably didn't give it. It's not something the average person is interested in. But if the dog was schutzhund trained, I say it's 99% likely the dog was out of European lines.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 15, 2004 20:00:41 GMT -5
For those of you are following this thread and are fairly new to the breed please let me give you some background. When I first got seriously involved with the breed forty years ago there was a steady inflow of German dogs to the U.S. This included Siegers and high VA dogs. These imports all were schutzhund trained as was required in Germany yet they competed in the AKC show ring on an equal basis with American bred dogs. Many of the the largest shows were judged by German judges and Am breds did their fair share of winning under these judges. As the prices for imports rose the best German dogs started going to Japan and the Arab countries who could afford them more then we Americans could. At the same time many kennels here were seeing their breeding programs come to fruition and their need to use imports become less important. In Europe you started having divisions between show & working kennels. For whatever their reason the SV started breeding away from the standard as I indicated earlier in this thread with roached backs, incorrect withers, croups, angulation and pigmentation and over sharp temperaments. Americans also deviated from the standard. They had problems with weak backs, poor male heads, elongated stifles and soft temperament. Most of the problems in Am breds have been corrected. They do not suffer from narrow fronts or huge ears, Do some have them? I am sure they do as well as some imports. From a conformation point of view there should only be one measure of the breed and that is the standard. The standard shouldn't be used as a weapon. If dogs from all over the world were judged against the same standard forty years ago why can't this happen today? Why was the FCI standard changed if not to separate the European dog from the American? Whenever I hear someone crying about the politics of the AKC show ring the first thing that comes to my mind is that here is another person that couldn't see that they were showing mediocre animals and blamed their losses on politics. From what I have been told and have read politics is part of the dog game in Europe also. You just have to know the rules of the game before you get involved.
If you want to own show dogs so be it. If you want to be involved with schutzhund, herding or what ever that is your choice. No one should cast aspersions on what you do under the guise that it is not in the best interest of the breed. Pure bred dogs are man made and as times changes man's needs change. Most of us don't live on farms or own sheep herds. We look for different diversions. We don't do what is good for the breed we do what we enjoy. As long as I could look at my dogs and liked what I saw I was happy. The trophies & ribbons were just icing on the cake.
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Post by gsdpal2 on Feb 16, 2004 1:42:07 GMT -5
Norm, We agree, surprisingly, on many issues. We still disagree on many, but for now we will have to agree to disagree and help to show the two sides to the new folks to the breed. I agree that some problems have popped up in German lines. The reason, however, that these things have not been corrected until recently and were showing up in top rated dogs is because the Germans place more emphasis on the working integrity and temperament/health of the breed than we do. The original dog was not a beauty to look at. He worked. He had a temperament that could be a family dog in the "turned off " mode, but he could also "turn on " in a heart beat and do his job. His drives allowed him to do this. There are many benefits to owning the average German dog as compared to the average American dog. Even if Germany did not export its best, and a person purchased an average dog, the chances of a dog with better longevity, temperament, and health are greater because of the rigorous process dogs must go through before they may breed. In America, dogs that win Westminster are not the average Am shepherd. the truth is, the average American shepherd show Champion is nothing like that dog at Westminster. The average dog is more than 2x its height long which increases its chances for developing disk problems, it is overagulated which causes hip problems, has a narrow front, poor heads, etc. Even some of the most renown American show kennels are going to imports. Look at Merkle. She has only a couple of American dogs left. She will tell you on her site the same thing about the average American dog. Reputable kennels are running out of good genes to pull from. Imports are the only way for them to bring BACK the good traits of the GSD from before the rift began. If you go to the average, AKC show, the GSDs there are pitiful representatives of the breed. They do not even fit the standard for the conformation, much less the temperament or character. I have nothing against showing. I think that showing can be a great way for people to show the reputation of their breeding program. I think that the AKC shows should have more involved to show the total dog. I am not saying this has to be ScH. In fact, it can be a simple herding INSTINCT test. Are the drives there? I think that a beauty contest does not show us everything that we need to know in order to decide who is producing the best dogs. That is why I favor the SV the most. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were first. they look for the total dog. Are there politics involved, sure. Politics are everywhere. It is harder to ignore the physical aspects that have to be there though. they are there for everyone to see. The judge has to tell everyone why he/she ranked a certain dog where he/she did and has to tell the faults as well as the strong points of the dog. It is then up to reputable breeders to decide which features of a dog best match the bitch they want to breed or vice versa. The SV standard has not changed to include the faults that you show concern over. people have decided to overlook these faults since they do not affect the health or ability of the dog. Still, the standard is what it is, and I think that they should stick to it. That I agree with you about. What I do not agree with is the AKC overlooking faults in a dog that do pose a threat to long term health and ability. People see that a dog has a CH. before its name and they think that they are getting something great. Too many of these champions are not lasting beyond ten years of age.The longevity is not there. That is why the GSDCA has a special award for those dogs who do reach over ten years of age. It is a big deal to be that dog. If the longevity is so different for the two countries, it is obvious to me that one country is doing MORE in the way of the best interest of the breed. Norm, I am sure that your dogs were great. I have not said that all AKC show breeders are bad. I happen to like very much Heidleberg kennels, and IF I were to ever buy an American dog, I would buy from them. I like what Jimmy Moses shows. The Kismet dogs are lovely and still can work. These are not the majority of the dogs in our country though. The AKC has done nothing to curve this pattern. the SV has instilled strong values and rules for its members.
What I meant by the dog needs to have high drives was not meant to disqualify the dog for family life. What that means is that the typical person who has not done his homework on the breed BEFORE purchasing this dog ends up not being able to control or handle the dog. This is not a reason to mellow out the dog. If we continue to do this, we are saying that we will breed to what the GENERAL public wants from the average dog. The GSD is not the average dog either. We breed to a standard not people. Of course, only in the perfect world scenario do people breed to the standard and not people. Even the AKC standard states that the dog is a working dog above all else.
I think that the only purpose of showing should be to prove one's ability as a breeder, and if the point is not who can put the most initials before and after their dog's name, why is the coveted "CH" so popular in the show ring, Norm? Didn't you ever want to achieve "CH" status? The reason I do not show is not because I can not win due to politics, in fact, I have never tried showing, so I do not know if I could win, politics or not. I do not show because I do not breed yet. I have nothing to prove in the show ring since I do not breed.
We each have presented our opinions, and now I think that all that is left to do now is agree to disagree and let each person reading this discussion make up his/her own mind as to the merits of each side. I do not think that either of us is wrong completely. If the two sides could merge in the middle, we would be well off in the GSD community. We all love this breed no matter on what side of the pond he was born. It is the people involved who we do not universally like. We can all agree to that, can’t we, Norm?
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 16, 2004 13:12:38 GMT -5
gsdpal,
The main thing that I disagree with you about is your reliance on opinion and heresay purported to be facts. Such as:
1. "The reason, however, that these things have not been corrected until recently and were showing up in top rated dogs is because the Germans place more emphasis on the working integrity and temperament/health of the breed than we do."
Do you have any evidence to back up this ridiculous statement?
2. "There are many benefits to owning the average German dog as compared to the average American dog."
Again this is your opinion not a factual statment.
3. "In America, dogs that win Westminster are not the average Am shepherd. the truth is, the average American shepherd show Champion is nothing like that dog at Westminster."
I suppose that Siegers & VA dogs represent the average Shepherd in Germany?
4. "The average dog is more than 2x its height long which increases its chances for developing disk problems, it is overagulated which causes hip problems, has a narrow front, poor heads, etc."
Let's see if the average Am bred is 2x its height long (I assume you mean height to length proportion) it would be the size of the Great Dane.
5. "If you go to the average, AKC show, the GSDs there are pitiful representatives of the breed. They do not even fit the standard for the conformation, much less the temperament or character."
hahahahahah. Words fail me.
gsdpal let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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Post by gsdpal2 on Feb 16, 2004 14:36:24 GMT -5
Norm, Please check your email as I am sure people are tired of this two way conversation. I think that we should leave room for ther opinions her too. We can continue this through email if you have any further disagreements.
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Norm
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Post by Norm on Feb 16, 2004 15:13:17 GMT -5
I'll check my e-mail tonight. This is a public forumn so anyone we wanted to make a comment is able to. By the way you asked for my background in the breed. What is yours? Norm, Please check your email as I am sure people are tired of this two way conversation. I think that we should leave room for ther opinions her too. We can continue this through email if you have any further disagreements.
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