AKC/Eukanuba National Championship on TV

[Nightshadows]

weeeellllll, here is what I found on the AKC site about Temperament:

Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

So, explain how AKC/CKC show dogs are evaluated against the standard when it comes to Temperament

---

Norm said:

IMO there is only one way of evaluating a dog and that is by comparing it to the standard.

[Norm]

It really depends on the judge's ring procedure. The most accepted method is for the handler with the dog on a loose lead go to the center of the ring. The judge then approachs the dog. This way the judge can observe the dog's reaction to him as a stranger. I have seen dogs excused or put to the back of the line due to exhibiting weak character.

Nightshadows said:

So, explain how AKC/CKC show dogs are evaluated against the standard when it comes to Temperament

[Norm]

Kerry,

For those that are not familiar with both the AKC & FIC standard could you list the differences between the two? Also could you point out where in the FIC standard it says that curved backs are desirable as are short necks, low withers, poor croups, lack of angulation, fading pigmentation and over aggressive temperament.

Kerry do you find it as interesting as I do that you now see two types of imported Shepherds, one that is similar to the American bred and one as described in paragraph 1, above? Why do you think this has happened?

Kerry said:

In my opinion, as the creator of the breed, the German standard is THE ONLY STANDARD for the German Shepherd Dog, and who do the countries who happen to have a GSD or All-Breed Kennel Club think they are to "create" their own standard? And those GSDs in the Westminster and the AKC/Eukanuba more than likely aren't to the German Standard. What CAN most of those dogs do other than trot around in a circle and look pretty, I ask?

[gsdpal2]

Norm,
IMO, the statement from US2004 that explained that the dogs he prefers (as these are the ones he owns and compard others to) would be considered "ugly" tells me that he prefers sables since most GSD fanciers who show in the AKC style shows show bi-colored, blk/red and blk/tan dogs. You do realize this post is under AKC/Eukanuba National Championships, but I am, sure that you do since you began this topic. It would only be natural to recognize that US2004 would know and write towards his audience -- that being, obviouisly, AKC show handlers/breeders or otherwise AKC fans. There is nothing wrong with being in such company; however, these such people do havethe largest reputaion of being kennel-blind. Do not mistake me here, I am not saying that you or anyone else here falls under this umbrella. Yes, I can read and have known for a while that you do not own any GSDs. When was the last time you did have one. I can not imagine life without. I also have a labrador retriever. I do know what it is like to own another breed. It just is not the same.
Pn to your question. Yes, it is a fact that the drives are bred out of the Am shepherd. You can tell all you want about standard. We all know that shows are political, and if it comes to it, the standard is thrown right out the window along with the drives the breed was created to possess. With that said, this statistic is just one of many pointing that the Am shepoherd falls short fo the German Shepherd. Yes, technically, the names are the same, and the standards are somewhat close. We have , as Americans, no reason to want to preserve the breed the way it was intended to be. The Germans, on the other hand, have a reputation as well as, to them, an obligation to keep the dog as close to the original standard as possible. It is not merely words to them to be used when the time permits. Yes, there are dogs with roach backs, which is the technical term, and short croups. Neither of these things are mentioned in any way to adversely affect working ability in the breed. However, overangualtion (leading toi hip and other joint problems) and narrow fronts do adversely affect the working ability in the breed.It is also a fact that I would have a 90% or greater chance of finding a German dog that could herd all day long as opposed to the Am dogs. 90% of the dogs in Sch, SAR, and other areas that require drives to be present could all be more suited to herding than MOST Am dogs. The simple fact remains that this can be said because of the drives and anatomical structure of the dog that is required in order to perform these tasks. Above all else the GSD was bred originally ot be a herding dog. We now know that these instincts and drives have allowed the dog to be versatile. It can not be versatile with overangulated hips and narrow fronts. All that proves is the dog can prance and appease the American standard of Beauty. Yes, my statistic comes from the Leerberg site as well as many others who are not in business of selling dogs. You may not be a fan of Leerberg. I, to tell you the truth, am not a fan of them. I do give credit where credit is due. I do know that, even if not a fan, you would recognize the kennel name and their reputation for conforming to the German standard. You may also know that Leerberg uses alost completely sable dogs. I have nothing against sables. I think that there are some very nice looking sable shepherds out there. In fact, I have been known to pick a sable before a blk/red, blk/tan, or bi-color if he/she fits the standard best. You are right, and we can agree on the fact that this is not about coat color completely. In fact it has been proven that the sable is essential in maintaining color pigment in the other varieties. I also believe that if a blk/red performs his work better, he is a better representative of our breed than a sable who looks nice but can not do the work. This is how the Germans value the dogs as well. A little about me. I have two GSDs presently. I have ne import and one rescue. I do not herd with my dogs as to the geographiic location we are in. My dogs could herd or perform other work that is presented to themI value the dogs original purpose. If we can not live with the dog we created, we should not own one. We should not recreate the dog in order to live with him. A good shepherd, owned by a well-educated (in dogs) person who is willing to train and stimulate this dog, will function in any environment. After all, one of the versatilites of the breed is its ability as a great family dog! Let's all just remember that we are all on the same side here. We all love this breed. We can speak our minds without getting hostile or name-calling. this includes little subtlties about a person's abilities to read, spell, or anything else that has nothing to do with the GSD! Let's remember that we have many nationalites represented on this board. Many of these people love the breed very much and want to be a part of the discussions but speak little or very poor English. It is not our place to judge! Dogs, yes -- people, no.Greeting new members like this will only alienate other new members who want to learn about this breed and benefit from our experience so that they may properly do things such as breeding! After all, it is all of our passion to educate these people before they contribute to the downfall of our breed. Education is the key to our success and hopefully the union of the two opposing sides!

[Nightshadows]

Great post!

Norm, I really dont see it enough of a temperament test just by entering the ring. I have seen dogs that have tried to bite the judge, or have growled at the judge not excused. So, that dog does well in the class, maybe obtains its championship and then gets bred. Now some of those genes have been passed on and the cycle continues.

My question is, what is so hard about requiring at least a gun test in dogs 12 months or older? I think that would be a better test for the dogs then just a judge walking up to them. If that is the basis of judging a good temperament in these show dogs, then I think the breed is in trouble.

[Norm]

gsdpal2,

I don't have the patience or desire to answer your post point for point, nor do I want to get into a debate which is unwinnable for either side. FYI the Germans are the ones who have the prejudice against sables. For years they have strived to breed for a uniform black & orange in their efforts to ignore the standard and mold the breed into what the SV hierarchy feels it should be like. The have only succeeded in distorting the beauty of the GSD.

gsdpal2 said:

Norm,
IMO, the statement from US2004 that explained that the dogs he prefers (as these are the ones he owns and compard others to) would be considered "ugly" tells me that he prefers sables since most GSD fanciers who show in the AKC style shows show bi-colored, blk/red and blk/tan dogs.

[Nightshadows]

The Germans dont like Sables ? ! ? Thats news to me- Im sure there are many breeders who breed the 'sable dogs'. There are even sable 'show' dogs in Germany, so explain that one.

Norm said:

gsdpal2,

I don't have the patience or desire to answer your post point for point, nor do I want to get into a debate which is unwinnable for either side. FYI the Germans are the ones who have the prejudice against sables. For years they have strived to breed for a uniform black & orange in their efforts to ignore the standard and mold the breed into what the SV hierarchy feels it should be like. The have only succeeded in distorting the beauty of the GSD.

[gsdpal2]

Norm,
if you lack patience to carry on this conversation, then perhaps you should not have started a converstion that you had to have known would turn out this way. If you do not like the black/red GSD, then why do you post a pic of one under your name? The standard does not state that a sable shepherd is the only accepted color, nor do Germans believe that the blk/red shepherd is more superior. This color happens to be the color du jour. Orange has never been an accepted color variety, and you should know that being you are so familar with the standard. The color that you refer to is red. We at least agree about one thing: the debate of whether the Am shepherd or the German shepherd is better is an unwinnable battle. That lies within the eye of the beholder. However, being that you are so much older than me, you have to remember the time when the Am shows were not dominated by overangulated, narrow-fronted dogs without so much as drive to herd some small children. That is a fact. Not my opinion. It has not always been this way, but from your previous posts, you must have come to the breed showring in the eighties when the rift began. The debate that IS winnable, and the ONLY debate that is going on here, is that the Americans have deviated from the standard so much that there should really be two separate breeds!Whether one is wrong or right is not the pooint. The point is, that these dogs being shown in AKC shows have no buisness being compared to German standard or German shepherds for that matter. They need to be separate. that would end all confusion between strandards and which shepherd is better.

Dbating aside. You still never answered me. I wanted to learn more about you other than the fact you can hold a debate with me! ;D Have you ever owned a shepherd, or do you post here simply because you love the herding group dogs? I see that you have a corgi.

[Kerry]

Norm said:

Kerry,

For those that are not familiar with both the AKC & FIC standard could you list the differences between the two? Also could you point out where in the FIC standard it says that curved backs are desirable as are short necks, low withers, poor croups, lack of angulation, fading pigmentation and over aggressive temperament.

Kerry do you find it as interesting as I do that you now see two types of imported Shepherds, one that is similar to the American bred and one as described in paragraph 1, above? Why do you think this has happened?

Hi Norm,

Two types of Shepherds imported to where?? Where do you see long backs, hocks, stifles, narrow heads, satellite dish ears, in the AKC or FIC Standards??
I'm going to go out on a limb, here, but since you asked for my OPINION, this is it. I don't mean to alienate or hurt anyone by my comments.
The Standard is the desired outcome from one's breeding efforts.
No, I don't find it interesting at all--but sad that some Americans have altered the breed so that its paramount feature is maybe looking good from the side, but for what? Also, some American breeders use a string of titles that may indicate a socialized dog, but are merely baubles used at the end of a dog's name to ostensibly prove breedworthiness. Other countries are just as guilty, but I use the American GSD as an example, because I've seen more of them. "WHY?" you ask? Because they CAN, and are able to fool some people into believing that they are producing "The Total Dog". Pfui!!
Haven't you ever seen a "butt-ugly" sable working dog that can't work? There's no discrimination between colors when it comes to not possessing the ability to work.
I shall challenge my own breeding program to adhere to the German Standard.
GSDPal2, I enjoyed your diplomatic post above.

[Norm]

gsdpal,

I first got involved with the breed in 1953. I bought my first GSD around 1965. He was a pet sired by a Champion, Select, SCHH 3 son of Troll v Richterbach. In 1968 I imported a bitch from Germany who although "a" stamped produced bad hips & elbows. I have bred, trained handled & match judged the breed. I owned my last GSD (a rescue) two years ago. I have owned Corgis since 1970 but never bred or showed them. All of the animals I now own are rescues.

I have never been an admirer of any GSD's that deviate from the standard be they Am bred or German I just feel that the Germans have gone out of their way to distort the breed.

I have no interest in anything other then the showring. I do admire true working & service dogs. Anything else, showing, schutzhund, obedience, agility, etc., is merely a matter of training and has nothing to do with a dog's ability to perform in the field.

I will gladly debate the merits & minuses of the Am bred vs the import with any one whose true aim is to improve the breed and not just voice their bias. But I will only debate with someone that can back up their arguments with facts not just opinions (theirs or others). As one of the few people on this Board that saw imports competing in the showring in this country on an equal basis with Am breds my hope is to see this again some day.

gsdpal2 said:

Dbating aside. You still never answered me. I wanted to learn more about you other than the fact you can hold a debate with me! ;D Have you ever owned a shepherd, or do you post here simply because you love the herding group dogs? I see that you have a corgi.

[gsdpal2]

With that established, you must then remember the time when American shepherds were not the way they are today? You asked about the FCI standard. American shepherds do not fit this standard either for the following reasons:

1. Under 'character' it states that "he must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness..."

American dogs do not possess these traits because we have been in such a suehappy society for so long that any of these things are a potential lawsuit if in the wrong hands. We all know that there is big bucks in showing. If the dog were to bite someone even provoked, that would be the end of his show career. Americans are greedy and money hungry creatures.

2. Under' gait' it states that "any overangualtion of the rear redues firmness and endurance and therefore, working ability."

The American shepherd has much too much angualtion of the rear to allow for any working ability.

I am sorry about your bad experience with imports. I do have to say though that even if a female is 'a' stamped, that does not mean that she can not or will not produce pups with bad hips. The father plays arole in this as well. Even if both parents are 'a' stamped still does not guarantee this. An x-ray does not determine if the dogs carry the gene for hip dysplasia. All this process does is serve as proof that the gene has not been active in producing dysplasia symptoms in the dogs' lineage. it is not a guarantee. Your chances are higher of the dysplasia ocurring, though, getting a pup from OFA rather than from 'a' stamped parents . The OFA standards are not as high as the 'a' stamp nor are they equivalant. Not all German dogs ae great, but your chances of getting one that is great are greater than with an American dog. Dysplasia is far more prevalant here than in Germany because everydog has to 'a' stamped before it breeds.

One more thing...Why do you have a pic of a blk/red dog on your posts if you don't like them or think they deviate from what the standard should be? Just curious. He has a gorgeous head.

[US2004]

Ok I'm back, this topic is just too interesting to end just yet ;D

First of all, Nightshadows, that was a good post. I agree with you that just entering a ring and having the judge feel the dog up is no real test of temperment or stability. I have unpredictable little kids pet my dog all the time at the park; it's no different. Yeah lets see how the dog reacts to gunfire. Now that's a test of temperment. I wouldn't be surprised by the reaction.

Norm, the Germans do like sables. Sable dogs dominate the working bloodlines as a matter of fact. You're talking about one specific variety(black/red) and that's the West German showlines. You won't see many, if any, of those dogs serving as police service dogs or dominate any of the protection dog sports. By the way, is my english that bad? I must have misspelled Eukanuba or something like that ;D

Gsdpal, I think you've pretty much summed up everything . My boy is actually a bi-color but out of working bloodlines. I do like sables, however, when it comes to picking a puppy, I'm colorblind. I'm into the protection sports, and there are so many traits you have to look for, and color just doesn't hold any water, especially when it comes to a dog saving your life.

Thanks Kerry. No I'm usually a pretty nice guy until it comes to crazy things, like people showing GSD's ;D j/k. Sure, I'll have to hunt down some batteries for my cam first and I can send a pic if you'd like.

[gsdpal2]

OOOPS...Left one thing out...How have the Germans gone out of ther way to distort the brred? I am just curious. I feel they have done an excelent job proving the dog still has the nerves and drives to perform the "true" work you speak of. Yes, these things suich as ScH, obedience, tracking, agility, etc all are good training, but you can not train a dog to do those things that does not have the desire, drives, and physical abilty to do so. These events such as Sch prove that the dog has the traits and qualities to do the work. It is only a test to show potential and ability.

[Norm]

The FCI standard of today has been rewritten to conform to the SV's desire to separate themselves from the GSDCA. If you could get a copy of the FCI standard from the 70's you wouldn't see the words "fighting drive, hardness or overangulation". I did ask for and get a copy of it from the SV but unfortunately it was in German. As for the GSD's use as a protection or servie dog things have changed in Europe too as the Malinois has replaced the GSD as the police dog of choice. As a matter of fact I understand that the new head of the SV (a Malinois breeder himself) upset many people by suggesting the GSD should be infused with Malinois blood in order to regain it's courage and fighting instinct.

My bad experience with a German import didn't prejudice me against the use of imports it only taught me that the Germans don't sell their best dogs. My own breeding program was based on 3 dogs one of which was an import and two that were the grandsons of imports.

Please give me statistics that back up your statement "Your chances are higher of the dysplasia ocurring, though, getting a pup from OFA rather than from 'a' stamped parents . The OFA standards are not as high as the 'a' stamp nor are they equivalant."

If the "a" stamp method is so good why hasn't dysplasia been eliminated in imports since they have been using this system for about 50 years? One would think that with all of the generations produced in those 50 years it would have been eliminated by selective breeding. Is it just possible that HD is so inherent in canines it can't be eliminated. By the way why didn't the SV establish an "a" stamp program for elbows? ED & UAP are much more crippling and painful then HD.

The reason I chose Don's head as my avatar has nothing to do with his color, There are many Am breds I could have used but their photos are usually too small to reproduce on the computer as compared to the Urma pictures. FYI the black & red color leads to fading pigmentation. How many imports do you see today that are loosing their strong black saddles?

gsdpal2 said:

With that established, you must then remember the time when American shepherds were not the way they are today? You asked about the FCI standard. American shepherds do not fit this standard either for the following reasons:

1. Under 'character' it states that "he must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness..."

American dogs do not possess these traits because we have been in such a suehappy society for so long that any of these things are a potential lawsuit if in the wrong hands. We all know that there is big bucks in showing. If the dog were to bite someone even provoked, that would be the end of his show career. Americans are greedy and money hungry creatures.

2. Under' gait' it states that "any overangualtion of the rear redues firmness and endurance and therefore, working ability."

The American shepherd has much too much angualtion of the rear to allow for any working ability.

I am sorry about your bad experience with imports. I do have to say though that even if a female is 'a' stamped, that does not mean that she can not or will not produce pups with bad hips. The father plays arole in this as well. Even if both parents are 'a' stamped still does not guarantee this. An x-ray does not determine if the dogs carry the gene for hip dysplasia. All this process does is serve as proof that the gene has not been active in producing dysplasia symptoms in the dogs' lineage. it is not a guarantee. Your chances are higher of the dysplasia ocurring, though, getting a pup from OFA rather than from 'a' stamped parents . The OFA standards are not as high as the 'a' stamp nor are they equivalant. Not all German dogs ae great, but your chances of getting one that is great are greater than with an American dog. Dysplasia is far more prevalant here than in Germany because everydog has to 'a' stamped before it breeds.

One more thing...Why do you have a pic of a blk/red dog on your posts if you don't like them or think they deviate from what the standard should be? Just curious. He has a gorgeous head.

[Nightshadows]

Dont lie You used Don's picture because you really like him, Im sure there are lots of AKC dogs whose picture you could have used Don is gorgeous so if you use it thats AOK with me ;D BTW, Im just teasin' ya.

You mention imports. Does this mean you only have a problem with dogs bred in GERMANY? Or do your opinions spread to German dogs that are bred and shown in the US?

Norm said:

The reason I chose Don's head as my avatar has nothing to do with his color, There are many Am breds I could have used but their photos are usually too small to reproduce on the computer as compared to the Urma pictures. FYI the black & red color leads to fading pigmentation. How many imports do you see today that are loosing their strong black saddles?