whats is the Number One thing

[Nightshadows]

that you feel should come first when breeding? Maybe the question isnt coming out right, what do you feel is most important in the GSD...temperament, health, conformation, etc etc. I have been thinking about this and I think for me number one would be temperament. This isnt to say you sacrifice all the others for this but so many of them have bad temperaments or bad nerves What do you think?

[freundhund]

Hi Nightshadows

For me it temperament. If the temperament is good then I X-ray for hips and elbows. These must pass and pass well for me personnally. Then I breed survey.


Then I have to find a partner for my bitch. I've desexed bitches if there appears to be no decent studs by the age of 4 yrs. This has happened I have not found suitable male I won't breed.


Reason for temperament is that the average puppy buyer has to live with the puppy. I can only keep 1 puppy from a litter so I have to think about where the others are going. Their people have to be able to live with them.

Regards

Freundhund

[Wolf]

Temperament, temperament, temperament! It's always different to rank things, because the 'total' package is so important, but really, if you don't have temperament, everything else is irrelevent in my eyes.

[Brittany]

I pick health. I will not breed if the health is poor and have too many problems at such young age. I would fear that the dog would produce unhealthy pups and that I do not want to start off as getting a bad reputation for selling unhealthy pups. I then choose Temperament, as my pups will be house dogs, including Working/Shows.

My goals are to produce healthy, super temperament-ed pups and excellent for SchH and conformation.

[Norm]

Temperament is #1. Health is # 2. Everything else is irrelevant if you don't have them.

[lauren]

Health
Temperament
Utility (ugliness )

[TheDahliMamma]

Temperament is my first. Then health. If you have a healthy dog with bad temperament, its a difficult situation to deal with. I see healthy dogs everyday who have horrible, aggressive temperament (dogs that belong to my clients as I work with aggression cases). Sometimes I have to ask myself and answer the questions clients ask...is it worth it to put the time and money into this temperament issue?

Boy, its a hard question to answer.

BTW, the dogs I work with are all kinds of breeds, not just GSDs. When I work with a fair amount of aggression, it becomes pretty clear to me what my priority is.

Fran

[lauren]

Time to play devil's advocate.

Does ordering priorities have any meaning? I don't think so. It all depends on the trade offs between the categories to me. If I say that color is most important (while gagging ;D ) and hips are second, but I would consider major pigment issues to be the same as having good instead of excellent hips then is color really most important? Similarly, does it really matter what breeders say is most important to them? Breeding goals and tradeoffs are too complex to be in a simple list. Making a list of faults (from most acceptable to least) would also be equally ineffective. To be honest, I would pick an off color as the least offensive fault because it doesn't impact working ability in general. But with all of the acceptably colored dogs out there I wouldn't ever have the choice between a perfect working dog that was white and one that was equal in all respects but coat and another fault. Since all else is never equal, it is really impossible to be too theoretical about the whole situation without going into great detail. Is a large health fault equal to a small health fault and a large color fault? What IS a large or small color/health fault? What is the correct temperament? Is show dog structure really a reflection of utility (the true definition of beauty)? I could go on, but just wanted to point out some of the limitations of this game.

Order of consideration also has to be compared with ease of evaluation. Would you train a dog for months and then test the hips? Logic might say so if temperament is most important to you, but why potentially waste so much time with a dog that had other problems?

[Nightshadows]

I simply asked the question to get the ball rolling in this section. Like I said before, choosing the one trait you like best in the GSD doesnt mean you sacrifice the rest. I would rather have a dog with an excellent temperament and poor pigment then a dog with a so-so temp. and excellent pigment. So, you take that poorly pigmented dog and find a dog with an equally good temp. with better color, trying to improve on that pigment while trying to maintain that good temp.

Now, say your dog has temperament, good hips and elbows, good pigment....in what order would you rather have these 2? a good work ethic or good conformation? ;D

[Norm]

For most of us good temperament and health are our first priorities. Since this section is called Your Breeding Program let's assume we are talking about what we look for in breeding animals. Actually that was the way Dana originally started the thread. By the time you are breeding a bitch you should know if she has any major health problems that would cause you not to breed her. After health & temperament it all depends on what your area of interest is. Mine was the conformation ring so I was looking to improve on my bitches structural deficiencies when deciding on a stud for her. This of course changed with whatever bitch I was breeding at the time. My utlimate goal as a breeder was to eventually end up with what I considered an animal that came as close to the standard as was possible. Since we all have our own interests I am sure that each one of thinks differently as to what is most important in a dog. Even within the same area there are differences. Some people would forgive a little less front if they got the rear they wanted. Some wanted a black or a bicolor, etc. As long as we are trying to breed the best dogs that we can there is no right or wrong.

[Nightshadows]

thanks Norm, since I dont breed yet, this is just a learning game for me!

[ovejero]

In my opinion the question, although good to get the conversation going, contains its own bias.

In breeding there should not be a "number one thing" that stands out as a priority over others. Stephanizt himself always spoke of Balance. Althought he stated time after time that the GSD must be a working dog (and he was not refering to Schutzhund, or any other sport but actual work) he also stressed the need to keep ALL aspects in perspective and not to allow specific traits to take over the breeder's judgment.

Some dogs have excellent temperament yet lack in many other areas. I don't believe we should base a breeding choice on temperament alone for there are many dogs with very good temperament who also have excellent structures and type. If we base our choice on temperament alone, we stand the chance of overlooking the complete picture and make concessions based on a single characteristic. In other words, far too many males are bred with the excuse that they have great temperament only to render a sub-standard puppies structurally.

I would also like to add that in my opinion the male must be held to the highest level of standard. The famale is like your basic "color pallette" you have what you have. Hopefully you lucked out with a couple of very good females, but basically they are your "constant". So the male becomes the "variable" you will use to add color to your pallette and make a better picture. You will use several males with the same female looking for that combination that will allow for the best product. Sometimes your female may lack a little bit in certain areas, therefore your adjustments must come from the seleciton of the stud dog.

All of this requires very specific goals that must be well defined in your mind--a certain "type" that you envision and can recognize when it actually comes to pass. This is why it is advantageous to be be out there and see the events where different dog types are being represented, then you can have some mental pictures to compare your product to. The opposite is called kennel blindness and it is very difficult to correct.

Recapping. Although I agree that the dogs in question must have good temperament and good health, these are fundamental qualities similar to saying that when you buy a car "it must actually run and be dependable" but after that, to me the most important thing is to achieve that ellusive "balance" of traits that you must be very acquainted with in your own mind and which must be used a your personal "blue print".

RC

[GrumMajestat]

First is temperament but health is just as important those two pretty much go hand and hand for me. Next, I like to see the working ability still there with V structure. That has become VERY important to me especially since all the razing I get at my clubs for Rex is the only show line dog there but he puts shame to some of the working line dogs. I could not ask for better nerves or courage as he has. The work ethic is very important to me which solid nerves and temperament have to be observed all together it makes a happy package.

[Currmudgeon]

ovejero said:

In breeding there should not be a "number one thing" that stands out as a priority over others. Stephanizt himself always spoke of Balance.

I agree with this. Any virtue, taken in isolation is just that, an isolated good point. A dog with great temperament, terriffic health, and no legs doesn't fare too well in the Sendaway. and the retrieve over a jump is pretty hard.

I guess I'll have to steal a concept from Jeff Cooper's First Law of Gunfighting, which is, "Have a gun."

So I guess you've gotta have a dog first. Then you'll decide what you shoulda done instead, and how to optimize what you've got.

[VonIsengard]

I know my number one thing:

BALANCE!

The positive traits of a GSD should be balanced between working ability, structure, and health. You can't have any one of these things without the others and still have a quality GSD. ;D