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Post by JanisN on Nov 23, 2003 9:50:07 GMT -5
Okay, I'll go first! ;D I have to say, straight up, that I already have studs picked out for this female's first two litters. But I'm ALWAYS interested in what other people would suggest about breeding and why they suggest it. You're more than welcome to give names of males and even if you own the male, I won't think it's shameless self promotion if you can give me reasons why you think it would be a good breeding.<grin> The female is Bette v Mittelwest. Her pedigree is www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/123996.html. Bette's strengths include AWESOME working character. She has drive, determination, focus and intelligence. This girl loves to bond with her handler and LOVES to work. She has a very nice head, normal withers, good topline and bottomline and is more mature than the picture on Schafer. She has gained quite a bit of power in her rear drive as the muscles have developed. One of those big arsed breeding girls! On the negative side, she's not totally correct in the front. She has a shorter upper arm that restricts her front reach. She has decent pigment, but not a lot of color. Her ears are huge and she's slightly long in the body. So, who would you breed her to and why? JanisN |
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Post by gsdoglady on Nov 23, 2003 11:08:32 GMT -5
Where do you go in the import show lines to improve the restricted fronts? Not just for gaiting, but also for better shock absorbtion in jumping -- I am asking as you see a lot more German dogs than I do.
I would look for the best male I could find that was good in her strong points and routinely produced good forequarter assemblies. Pigment/color would be on the bottom of the list. I would happily deal with less color if I could get better structure. But that color does, unfortunately, influence judges. (in all venues)
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Post by Nightshadows on Nov 23, 2003 16:33:52 GMT -5
Ok Janis, I am going to attempt to reply. This is my first time ever doing something like this and I will most likely be 99.999% wrong, but bare with me  What about Sergio von Bad-Boll? In his picture on the Schafer site (which is a bit blurry for some reason) he appears not to have really large ears and they look to be set well on his head. Here is his picture: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/120038.html It looks like he has very good pigment and a plush coat which I dont know if that matters any but it looks like Bette has a really tight coat. His head looks really strong too. God I feel stupid doing this  I dont know enough about conformation to comment on the front angulation you mentioned but Sergio's breed survey says: "Large, strong, very typey and expressive, very masculine with strong head, high withers, firm back and very good position and length of croup. Very good front and rear angulation, well balanced chest proportions, correct front. He is true coming and going with very good reach and powerful rear drive. Sure temperament, TSB pronounced; does out. Special Merits: Very masculine and structured in very good proportions with very good overall firmness. Breeding Recommendations: For improving the type, expression and masculinity" The line breeding would be: 5 - 5........... in V Cello von der Römerau 5 - 5........... in V Anett vom Noricum 5 - 4............in VA Mark vom Haus Beck 4 - 4,5.........in VA Jeck vom Noricum 5,5 - 5,5......in VA Odin von Tannenmeise 3 - 4............in VA Hobby vom Gletschertopf 4 - 5............in V Quitta von der Ehrenfeste I have heard that Cello Romerau and Mark Haus Beck were very good workers so that would be a good thing. I dont know if you are trying to get away from Jeck/Odin but of course they are in there and I have no clue if a 3-4 linebreeding is too close or not (probably is) or what Hobby would bring to the plate but this is one dog that just popped into my head so I thought I'd try it. You said maybe using a shorter dog like Uno, I looked at Uno and Sergio is longer then Uno. Oops. Take it with a grain of salt lol! |
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Post by Brittany on Nov 23, 2003 18:52:34 GMT -5
Janis, This is great! I love having to do paper breeding, lol even Jezzi knows that  Bette vom Mittelwest is a very nice female. It’s a very tough question to determine a mate for Bette, which she hasn’t been bred before so we can’t see of what kind/type that she produces. As what Dana had mentioned that I think that V Sergio von Bad-Boll would do well. Since Bette has a tight coat that Sergio could probably loosen up the coat in his genes, so that the pups could be plush coats, instead of tight. Here’s an example of a progeny of Sergio… www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/387063.html Pasha Vom Fleischerheim. I believe that Sergio could fix up the ear problem that Bette has. This includes the front and the reach, as what Dana had mentioned. Here’s another male dog that I picked. Even know he was barred from Germany for shooting out blanks that I would pick VA Rapi Supra. I must admit that Rapi supra had produced some very nice quality bitches. I feel that he will most definitely improve this breed.  Alba di Casa Jose,SchH1, kkl1 A Supra daughter. The line breedings will be: • 5 - 5............................................. in V Anett vom Noricum • 4 - 4,5........................................... in VA Jeck vom Noricum • 5 - 5,5........................................... in VA Odin von Tannenmeise I'm a HUGE Jeck vom Noricum fan so in my own opinion that this breedings will do great www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=121405&modir=123996 |
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Post by VonIsengard on Nov 24, 2003 0:25:26 GMT -5
OK, I'm going to list 2 dogs who I'm interested in for my dog- who is half sister to Bette's mom.
Hassan Scwalmbergtal: VA2 NASS, VA1 in Spain, well pigmented, very nice front, high wither, with excellent front reach. Linebreeding would include a very interesing 4-4 on Mark.
Superioue's Zathan: VA1 NASS, dog with very nice color. I like his front, and he has a lovely head. This pedigree would be more open, with more distant linebreeding on Jeck and Fedor.
I pick these dogs because I am a big fan of Mark vom Haus Beck. Hassan especially has a very interesting pedigree freer of some overused lines. Zathan displayed some very nice progeny at the NASS as well.
I would think that progeny from either of these breedings would then be able to match better with certain Ursus or Eros line dogs. An Eros line dog would also make a good linebreeding here.
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Post by VonIsengard on Nov 24, 2003 0:38:52 GMT -5
Alba is an exquisite bitch- too bad she has a3 hips.  |
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Post by JanisN on Nov 24, 2003 12:27:07 GMT -5
I've looked long and hard at Sergio, one of the main problems is lack of progeny that we're able to see. For a male who was such a superstar in young dog class at the sieger show in Las Vegas, he just wasn't seen again until NASS in North Carolina. I would have hoped and expected to see progeny competing in at least puppy classes this year. I wasn't totally impressed by Sergio's bitework in NC, but that could have been because the helpers were definitely taking it easy on the dogs. Sergio might be a male that needs bigger challenges to live up to. I'm not sure that Sergio could fix up an "ear problem". Bette's ears are satellite dishes, Sergio's are as well. Rapi Supra is outstanding looking in and of himself, but his rear is not something I want to be reproducing. IF Bette turns out to be genetically dominant, because she has a very correct rear, then that is a breeding that might work. A 3-4 linebreeding is not too close at all. I love Mark and what he's produced (known for very HAPPY dogs!) and love that line breeding. I actually have decided after a lot of looking and thinking to breed Bette to Uno v Haus Babilon. I have seen this male work, have seen him in the ring and have seen some very nice progeny from him. The line breedings are what I really like. You can see the paper breeding www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=122406&modir=123996Please don't think I was "playing with you" by asking about a breeding when I've already made my mind up! I definitely appreciated all your input and am saving this for future reference. Because if she's a good producer, it's a sure bet she won't breed just once or twice.<grin> JanisN |
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Post by JanisN on Nov 24, 2003 12:33:11 GMT -5
Hassan Scwalmbergtal: VA2 NASS, VA1 in Spain, well pigmented, very nice front, high wither, with excellent front reach. Linebreeding would include a very interesing 4-4 on Mark.
Superioue's Zathan: VA1 NASS, dog with very nice color. I like his front, and he has a lovely head. This pedigree would be more open, with more distant linebreeding on Jeck and Fedor. Kelly, I think both are good choices, obviously anything from VA1 Zathan will find a niche in the market place. And I know that's not your intention, you want to be able to keep something back for yourself. If you're not breeding just for the public then you really need to never do a breeding you don't like. Did that make sense? JanisN |
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Post by Brittany on Nov 24, 2003 20:07:04 GMT -5
My dog’s breeder has a litter of Sergio’s pups, which all of them are sold but I will try to ask him if he has any “clear” pictures of the progeny so far. I was going to get a bitch but decided not to because the female is a fault, a long haired shepherd. The reasoning for lack of progeny because he’s a young dog, still. He was born on 2000, which he still has time to start producing some nice progeny. I haven’t seen Sergio at all but I'm sure he’s a good dog. I'm sure Sergio had a bad day, which was on one of the important day. That’s all I have to say, until I learn more of him. Rapi is an outstanding looking male. If I have a female that I would love to breed my female with Rapi… I also like his progeny. Is Enschi genes are dominant? If it is then hopefully Bette produced that from her mothers genes. A 3-4 linebreeding is not too close at all. I love Mark and what he's produced (known for very HAPPY dogs!) and love that line breeding. I have checked out the pedigreedatabase and have not seen a whole lot of progeny on Uno. Do you know a site of which we can check his progeny? Theirs one dog that is in his picture progeny, is this your type of breeding? ![]() www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/124118.jpg[/img] This is a daughter of Uno’s. |
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Post by Brittany on Nov 24, 2003 21:46:14 GMT -5
Dana had asked me a question about breeding Bary with Bette... Janis as what you had mention before Bary and Bettes linebreeding will produce... Even know it's a 4-4 linebreeding. 5 - 5............................................. in V Cello von der Römerau 5 - 5............................................. in V Quina von Arminius 4 - 4............................................. in VA Mark vom Haus Beck5 - 5............................................. in VA Fedor von Arminius as for the rest of the Paper breeding pedigree is www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=388937&modir=123996 |
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Post by VonIsengard on Nov 26, 2003 14:42:38 GMT -5
I understood you, Janis- even though it took me a minute. ;D I liked Zathan a lot well before NASS, and I was really bummed out with his placing in Bakersfield. I must admit I am rather biased. I love my Rikkor daughter, her temperament is spectacular, she did very well in all the regional shows this year, and her pedigree leaves me with lots of breeding choices.
I considered Uno for my dog, too, but with her very closed pedigree, I think I'm better off staying away from Jeck/Zamb linebred dogs.
I will say very tentatively that I am 95% sure about my stud for Tigra's first breeding. But I'm staying tightlipped until the deed is done.  All I will say is he is VA, and I will have a Mark linebreeding on the litter. ;D
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Kerry
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Post by Kerry on Nov 30, 2003 14:30:47 GMT -5
Hi Janis,
This is fun!
I hope we get more than one pop because I don't think that this dog is alive, but I like Wobo vom Lärchenhain! He's got THE head, smaller ears, good pigment and the upper arm. Seemed to have produced well in the areas that you have concerns.
Linebreeding:
4 - 5...................................in VA Fedor von Arminius
4 - 5,5................................in VA Odin von Tannenmeise
Bette & Wobo Son, Hagadahls Arex:
5,4 - 5....................................VA Fedor von Arminius
5 - 5,5................................... VA Odin von Tannenmeise
Bette & Wobo Grandson V-1 Zygadto vom Lachenerweg, normal ears (upper arm could be a little more angulated):
5 - 5..................................in VA Fedor von Arminius
5,5 - 4,5............................in VA Jeck vom Noricum
4 - 4..................................in VA Hobby vom Gletschertopf
5 - 5..................................in V Quitta von der Ehrenfeste
In Quitta, the upper arm length is OK, but could be a little more angulated, but the others have nice comments on length and angulation of the upper arm.
You could breed the resulting offspring to Mark Haus Beck lines.
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Post by geronimo on Dec 1, 2003 13:58:20 GMT -5
"On the negative side, she's not totally correct in the front. She has a shorter upper arm that restricts her front reach. She has decent pigment, but not a lot of color. Her ears are huge and she's slightly long in the body."
Janis,
You must first decide which faults are more important to correct in a "compensatory breeding". In my mind, these would be her short upper arm and restricted reach. IMO, two German dogs in recent history which consistently produce correct fronts with straight stance in front, lovely long upper arms, great front angulation and shoulder layback, beautiful reach, and great suspension are Karly Arminius and and his son Jello Michelstädter Rathaus. While you may get acceptably pigmented areas of black, you should get really great color. Ears should be of normal size (neither donkey ears or small cat ears) and will be correctly set. Body length should be normal---neither excessively short or too long. With Karly/Jello lines, you are likely to retain Bette's structural and working attributes, as well.
When doing any corrective breeding, you must not breed one fault to the opposite extreme. For example, if you want to correct for over-size, breed to a dog with correct size rather than to a small dog. If you do the former, statistically, you will get a litter with 50% large dogs and 50% correct sized dogs. On the other hand, if
you breed large dog to a small dog, statistically, you could get a litter with no dogs of correct size. You may
apply the same analogy to ear size.
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Post by JanisN on Dec 3, 2003 13:25:39 GMT -5
Sorry I've not been online much to keep up with this!
I appreciate all the comments, and Geronimo, I completely agree with you. Two wrongs (even in opposition) do not make a right.
JanisN
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Kerry
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Post by Kerry on Dec 3, 2003 22:23:08 GMT -5
Some people must believe that they can homogenize dogs, like half n' half. The consistent ability to produce correct structure is the proof in the pudding.
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All I will say is he is VA, and I will have a Mark linebreeding on the litter. ;D