My arms and legs need HELP!

[GSDS4MEx3]

Taser has this thing (BEHAVIOR) in Agility and I need HELP before I get any more bites and bruises on my arms and legs.

While doing the obstacle runs, I tend to screw up (novice handler here LOL) so we have to stop and start over. Welllll, Taser gets mad at me because HE has to stop. His way of showing me that he's upset because we have to stop is BITING MY ARMS AND LEGS and yipping at me!

Also, when I direct him to an obstacle during the run, he turns his focus OFF of the obstacle I'm directing him to and quckly BITES the arm sticking out THEN does the obstacle! Wed night he got me good. I now have a large bruise on my arm.

He is very drivey and wants to keep moving thru all of the obstacles. When he got my arm Wed night, I quickly plopped his butt on the floor and told him NO BITE. Of course that didn't stop him, he continued to do this. The trainer watched him carefully and she yelled NOOOOO when she saw him starting to go for my poor arm. He heard her and continued with the obstacle but my GOD I paid for it after the run! Yes, I now have a bruise on my LEG!

So, how the heck do I stop this behavior? For those of you that don't know, he will be starting SCH this month, and I want to be careful on correcting his biting.

[AvalancheGSD]

Hi Betty - where do you live. I may know of someone who can help you in your area.

Mary Lehman
Eagle-Eye K-9
Certified Remote Collar Specialist

[GSDS4MEx3]

AvalancheGSD said:

Hi Betty - where do you live. I may know of someone who can help you in your area.

Mary Lehman
Eagle-Eye K-9
Certified Remote Collar Specialist

I live in North Central Mass.

[AvalancheGSD]

Give me a day or so - I may know of someone in your area that might be able to help you. In the meantime, keep those arms close to your body ;D

Mary Lehman
Eagle-Eye K-9
Certified Remote Collar Specialist

[Nicole]

Hi Betty!

Aren't things a bit confusing once you start trying to deal with behavior issues and still not shut down a behavior you'll need later? When dealing with this one, you really need to keep in mind that you don't want to punish the biting - you simply want to tell him that in this situation, when you are doing this very thing, biting will get him nowhere.

So let's look at what's happened so far, going with the mantra "Behaviors that are rewarded WILL be repeated." Obviously he's feeling that there is a reason enough to continue the behavior, and that he's getting what he wants. He bites and acts cheeky, is still allowed to continue running the course, and sometimes gets into a physical meeting, if you will, with you. There's no guarantee that he's not enjoying the shoving match that is going on between you two. Contact is contact to some dogs, and no matter whether it's negative or good attention, its still a payoff.

It seems like he really loves agility, which is good news for you. If it were my dog and he was running the course, I would let him continue until the moment that he made unacceptable contact with me. AS SOON AS he makes contact, I would mark it with a certain phrase (most likely "Too bad! Time out" in a voice that isn't harsh or mad) and physically take him off of the course. I'd have a crate sitting on the side of the ring and just place him in it for 15-20 seconds. After the short time frame, he can come back out and continue, until the unacceptable contact is made. Then it's the same process again. Very quickly he'll learn that in this situation his physical behavior only gets him removed from the situation and he'll start to make the right choices.

The most important part is staying consistent with this and never allowing him to get away with it *sometimes.* He has to understand that EVERY time that he does this, there will be a consequence. The second most important part is that this is never done with angry moves, voice, etc. It's just a simple process without feeling or emotion.

The best part of this is that you aren't shutting down the biting in other situations. When the physical punishment is not there, Taser will simply learn that in this situation his biting will not work, and he'll just as quickly learn that it IS acceptable in other situations. If you're looking to do sport work anyway, he'll never be asked to bite his handler, right?!


Hope this helps!!!

[GSDS4MEx3]

Give me a day or so - I may know of someone in your area that might be able to help you. In the meantime, keep those arms close to your body

LOL, Thank you!

Aren't things a bit confusing once you start trying to deal with behavior issues and still not shut down a behavior you'll need later?

Oh yes! Especially being a Novice in both Agility and SCH!

So let's look at what's happened so far, going with the mantra "Behaviors that are rewarded WILL be repeated." Obviously he's feeling that there is a reason enough to continue the behavior, and that he's getting what he wants. He bites and acts cheeky, is still allowed to continue running the course, and sometimes gets into a physical meeting, if you will, with you. There's no guarantee that he's not enjoying the shoving match that is going on between you two. Contact is contact to some dogs, and no matter whether it's negative or good attention, its still a payoff.

I can certainly see this. I have stopped running the course (and I'll say, nope sorry!) when he bites my arm, but then he pulls a hissy fit and starts yipping and biting at my calves. I then let the next person run the course just to show him what happens when he does bite. Wellll, when he sees the next dog running the course when "HE" should be, he starts yipping, lunging and then bites at my legs AGAIN! At this point I've brought him outside for a time out. He's fine once outside, but once I bring him back in, he's chomping at the bit to get back into running the course and the cycle starts alllll over again. He's also in the "Teenage Butthead" Stage. <sigh>

It seems like he really loves agility, which is good news for you

Nicole, he LOVES Agility. He's excelling in it. He is VERY VERY fast. That's when I screw up, trying to compensate for his speed. When I put him in a sit so I can get out in front of the first obstacle, he shakes with anticipation waiting for me to say "release". He's the youngest in the class doing this off leash. He is awesome and learns quickly. I really want to continue Agility with him as well as SCH.

I will do what you've suggested and I'll be more consistant with it. You are right, I don't want it to be a negative correction where he will be doing SCH. I was just so frustrated Wed night with him and those two bites, out of the many I got, HURT! I am also hoping that once in SCH OB training, I can have more control over my "WILD TERROR TASER"!! ;D

Thanks for your response Nicole. Rest assured, I'll be back knowing my Taser!

[TheDahliMamma]

Biting people is simply not acceptable. In SchH, biting the sleeve is acceptable. I am from the school that a dog should be able to tell the difference between biting people and biting a sleeve or any toy for that matter.

In my mind, bite inhibition is a good thing. For SchH it is not, and one of the main reasons, I have been VERY slow to decide to train my dogs in protection...but that is another story.

But, getting back to your question, I would agree with the advice you have gotten here. I would also take the dog off the course and put him in a crate the second the nipping and biting started. But, I would not allow him back on the course until his arousal level came down. If he cannot calm down, he doesnt go back on the course. I think the key here is arousal. So, the question is how do you keep him from getting so aroused?

I would go right back to the beginning. Right now, he has gotten positive reinforcement for the behavior by getting to continue on the course. I would work heavily on self control. Agility is all about control. Put your controls back in before you allow him on the equipment. I might even go so far as to go to the agility field and practice down/stays while another dog is on the course. I would do major attention work with the dog and reward with food for all the good "calm" behaviors you can get. I would only take him on one piece of equipment at a time as reward for control. He starts to bite, the session is over. Back to down/stay outside the field.

In our zest to see our dogs do well on the course, we many times allow them proceed on overlooking something that should be fixed BEFORE they move on.

I teach agility, I compete in agility. And I can tell you that the BEST thing I did for my dog before I began agility was to title her in obedience. All those obedience skills I could use in agility. If your dog does not have very strong obedience and self control, then the agility can simply be too arousing for them to be able to put their mind where it needs to be.

I see people all the time whose dogs cannot come when they are called, do not know a wait command, do not know directionals, do not know "touch", or "easy", and so on. And for them the agility course is a free for all. And, usually they do not end up titling because of it.

Two things I see here. The first is the mistaken thought that obedience will crush the dogs drive. Motivational obedience simply doesn't do that. Secondly, you have a very motivated dog. Giving the dog some obedience is not going to crush this boy's drive.

I have on last comparison. There is a woman in our agility team whose dog barks incessantly during the course. She has never done ANYTHING to stop the barking because she was afraid to correct it - that it might ruin his drive to run the course. The situation for her now is that the dog simply cannot hear her directions. They cannot title. He is so aroused and he displays his arousal through barking like your boy does in biting. Personally, I think she made a mistake by letting him continue the second the barking started. And she didnt teach him any self control with obedience ahead of time.

Good luck. I am very excited that you are doing agility! We need to see more shepherds out there!

[Currmudgeon]

TheDahliMamma said:

I would go right back to the beginning. Right now, he has gotten positive reinforcement for the behavior by getting to continue on the course. I would work heavily on self control. Agility is all about control. Put your controls back in before you allow him on the equipment. I might even go so far as to go to the agility field and practice down/stays while another dog is on the course. I would do major attention work with the dog and reward with food for all the good "calm" behaviors you can get. I would only take him on one piece of equipment at a time as reward for control. He starts to bite, the session is over. Back to down/stay outside the field.

By george, I think she's got it!

In SchH, the bite is the reward for doing it right. In agility, at least in the case of this dog, it appears that the agility work is the reward.

If you're giving the reward without the desirable behaviour, you're training in something you don't want.

[Gator]

I have a dog who exhibits biting behaviors. She is obedience trained and that is her competition area so for her it is not a failure to know and perform obedience.
My dog does this often out of some displacement. She is frustrated or senses something in me that causes her nipping of the arms and legs to begin. I train my dogs to be very forward and pushy for reward. They believe in many ways that they are the ones who control the gaining of reward. I like the attitude and confidence this produces, she usually "drives" me for reward with her obedience behaviors but sometimes she leaks over into biting.

I like to ask for a competing behavior when this begins. I have my dog down whenever the biting begins. I don't reward the down either. This stops the biting as she is on the ground, it stops the process where she might earn reward also so it is a negative for her to have to have to assume a down. I allow her back up and if we proceed with no biting then she can earn reward for appropriate performance. I also tell her "no" or "uhuh" when she bites to make it clear there will NO reward for such behavior. I have tried to curtail it with conventional corrections and that was not as effective, plus it made it difficult to isolate the biting from the performance of the behavior we were doing at the time.
I also worked on teaching her the word "bite" when she takes a toy etc, and then could also work on "no bite" so that she would understand exactly what I was addressing. After some time she stopped the biting because it always meant a boring down and all activity stopped and no reward was available. She figured out it was not going to get her closer to her goal but was in fact going to delay the process.

[GSDS4MEx3]

Thank you DahliMamma! I've printed the responses here so I can refer back to them.

Taser is still young, so I know this behavior should be easy to change with more consistant work on my end. His sit/wait/stay and down/stays are very good for his age. His recalls are pretty solid and during Agility when I tell him heel, he gets right by my side, he's vocal abt it, but he does it. He also knows the touch command and the easy command. The easy command he will sometimes choose to try to ignore. The touch command he enjoys. He thinks it's a fun game.

He does have excellent focus on me. The trainer said he is "handler focused". BUT, while waiting for me to give the next command, he shakes with anticipation. This also happens outside of Agility.

We have a couple of wks off until his next set of Agility classes start. I will work with him a a lot more on rewarding him when he's calm as you suggested. I am also going to bring him to the trainer I'm using for OB training for my other male, next wk.

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. I want to "nip" this in the bud before it gets to out of hand. This is my first experience with a drivey pup, so I want to do everything correctly. I really appreciate the help!

[Shelaigh]

ewwww Betty, youve had it rough I remember black and blue marks all over me from when Sash was a puppy, looked AWFUL. Hang in there! Sounds like Taser gets really wound up!
Sash slammed into my left leg a couple of yrs ago (fully grown) its never been the same!

[Anakin & Phoenix]

Hi Betty,
Got here kind of late...but I wanted to let you know that Mandy did the same thing to me when she first arrived here.

I spent a lot of time just plain having to stop all work and crate her. She like Taser would get so excited that she would grab my hands, and wrists and legs. You could see her shaking in anticipation of the next command too.

She loved to learn but had to learn to control herself long enough to be able to complete what I asked of her without grabbing me.

I had to pinch her lip a lot and tell her 'no mouth' too, as she was even grabbing me for attention, she was so starved for it when she arrived here that she would try to initiate more of it from me by grabbing me.

Taser has the advantage of always having a stable home and he is young. I have every confidence that you will be able to find a way around his excitement.

Mandy had been ignored for at least 2 years before she was rescued and came here for part of her fostering...she had the grabbing, mouthing thing a bit too firmly ingrained in her bids for attention. But she did get to a point where she learned that mouthing, grabbing or biting at human body parts was a big no-no!