Training Philosophy? (long)

[liebejungen]

Ok, this is a fairly general question, but i need to hear what most of you feel is a proper philosophy for training A GSD.

Up til now i have been involved with a training club here whose philosophy is total bribery, i.e. luring the dog into obedience with food. No negitive reinforcement.

While i recognise that this method is helpful in teaching new commands, I am increasingly conviced that this is a very incomplete way to train a dog. You end up with a mostly obedient but un disciplined dog.

The reason i ask, Is that we are currently working one on one with a behavior modification trainer to try to teach my 10 month old to be less aggressive toward other dogs. Mostly I believe what she is exhibiting is what they call "Leash Aggression", for she is not really aggressive when she is not being restrained.

Anyway, the behavioralist does not want us to do any disciplining of Elsa, such a leash correction, or training colars. And at home the most we can do it put her in Time out.

SO, back to my original question, What do most of you use to train your dogs? Total luring without negative reinforcement, or a combination of the two? My personal philosophy leans toward the latter.

[Schaeferhund]

Definitely both, motivation and correction. or activation and drive v. correction or pressure.
It's the famous model of "pressing" by Dr. Raiser, which all other stuff about him aside, is very very good. imho

[JanisN]

I like training with positive motivation (i.e. food and praise rewards) but there has to come a time when you proof your work. The dog knows the commands but won't do them, what then? Time for compulsion which in our case is collar corrections and on our more stubborn buttheads, PRONG collar corrections.

While we don't use the prong collar before 12 months, it's perfectly possible to correct effectively with a flat leather collar. And in your case, that's what I would be doing. At the first sign of dog aggression, it would be "UT UH" correction, turn and heel off in the other direction then go back to try again.

Dogs coming into adolescence tend to be... well... jerks. They like to show off how big and tough they are and they can safely do this on leash because YOU are there to protect them if they get into trouble! There is just nothing evil in a collar correction, a verbal correction and doing whatever you have to do to get them to move PAST this idea before it becomes a habit or before they pick on that high strung dog who WILL take up the challenge and you both get hurt.

As for the time out notion. Pfui. A dog is not a 4 year old you can put into a time out to calm down and think about what happened. Throw a dog in a crate for a time out and they're thinking about when they're going to eat next. Of course, I certainly put dogs in crates when *I* need the time out.<grin>

Unless you really really really REALLY love your training group, find another group that's more based in reality. You're going to end up with a dog that knows what you want it to do but won't do it if it doesn't feel like it. Being blown off like that gets real old real quick. And you won't have been taught how to correct THAT behavior. No time out helps a dog when it blows an emergency down and runs in front of a car. That is definitely something to think about.

JanisN

[liebejungen]

Thank you both for your advice.

JanisN, What you are saying echos my thinking very much. The thought that comes to my mind most often is that the way that we have been training her may teach her what to do, when she feels like it, but it will not teach her the discipline she need to do thing even when she doesn't want to.

I am currently trying to synthesize the two philosophies so that I can move her more toward the more realistic methods that I have come to believe in via study.

Fortunately, we are done with classes for the moment, but we still have to get her CGC in the spring.

Do you use food/treats as training motivation, or do you use something else? I would like to get away from food, but that will take a while, because she has been conditioned to expect that.

[Schaeferhund]

Do you use food/treats as training motivation, or do you use something else? I would like to get away from food, but that will take a while, because she has been conditioned to expect that.
_______________________________
The other thing we use is ball. But it depends on how much "ball drive" a dog has. Some do work better on food, some on toy.

[Nightshadows]

I have always tried to use a ball/food when first training the dog to do something new. They have to have some sort of motivation to work. After awhile though when you know they know what you want them to do but they wont, then you have to move to correction I think. One quick pop on the prong when training was enough for my dog and then when he did what I wanted, instant break and play and praise praise praise. Now, he will work just for a thump on the side or an up tone in my voice. I think too much correction just breaks them down when you really want to be building them up.

[liebejungen]

Do any of you find that on days when they are extreemly stubborn, that leash corrections just do not work? I had that today on our training walk. She seemed not to notice them at all for most of the time. She had done very well the first two days that I had used it (while Refining the "Fuss").

[Schaeferhund]

It's all the matter of balance between motivation and correction for me. As nightshadows said, too much correction will break a lot of dogs down. If your dog is highly motivated in general you can use more correction, and they won't mind. It's a fine line.
However the "harshness" of the correction depends totally on the dog's sensitivity.


How old is your dog? And what do you mean by stubborn? Is she so hyper she wouldn't react to correction? Give an example, please...

[JanisN]

Yes, particularly in that age group. There brain just goes out the window.

You have to figure if she's shut down, in which case it's time to end the lesson or if she's just being "out there". In this particular case, I move to the random walk. Take a few steps with the fuss command, if she doesn't respond, say "fuss" and change direction. If she gets pulled off her feet it's her lookout, not yours. It's YOUR job to decide where to go and her job to accompany you.

After a few sessions of the random walk, she'll be more attentive. "Good fuss, good girl" praise, pet, play. Break her out and play with every success or use your food reward. When you're working, hold the treat in your mouth or carry the treat or toy right up under your chin. This will get her focussed on looking at your face and then she CAN'T miss a command.

JanisN

[liebejungen]

Schaeferhund said:

It's all the matter of balance between motivation and correction for me. As nightshadows said, too much correction will break a lot of dogs down. If your dog is highly motivated in general you can use more correction, and they won't mind. It's a fine line.
However the "harshness" of the correction depends totally on the dog's sensitivity.


How old is your dog? And what do you mean by stubborn? Is she so hyper she wouldn't react to correction? Give an example, please...

Elsa will be 10 months on Friday. By stubborn I mean, when you try to correct her, with a leash correction, she will act as if nothing happened at all. She gives no sign that she felt anything or that anything is unusual. But I know that she knows what happened, because she will refuse to look you in the eye. That is what I mean by stubborn.

It is the most frustrating thing in the world, because you feel helpless to enforce your commands.

She appears to have a really high pain tolerance. For instance, when she got her vaccinations at the Vet as a puppy, when he stuck her with the needle, she never even blinked. There was no sign that anything had happened that was out of the ordinary.

[liebejungen]

JanisN said:

Yes, particularly in that age group. There brain just goes out the window.

You have to figure if she's shut down, in which case it's time to end the lesson or if she's just being "out there". In this particular case, I move to the random walk. Take a few steps with the fuss command, if she doesn't respond, say "fuss" and change direction. If she gets pulled off her feet it's her lookout, not yours. It's YOUR job to decide where to go and her job to accompany you.

After a few sessions of the random walk, she'll be more attentive. "Good fuss, good girl" praise, pet, play. Break her out and play with every success or use your food reward. When you're working, hold the treat in your mouth or carry the treat or toy right up under your chin. This will get her focussed on looking at your face and then she CAN'T miss a command.

JanisN

That's good, because that is what i ended up doing at the end of the session. I decided that i needed to break things down into shorter segments for a while, before I expect her to do long walks.

THat is great advice about holding the toy under your chin so that she become accustomed to focusing in you. That is exactly the kind of tip i am looking for.

As an aside, Tonight i started working with her using her tug rope, insted of food for a little while. She saw it as play time and was very motivated to obey everything. I think that i am going to move in that direction. She responds very well to "aus" already, so I think I can make it work.

[Schaeferhund]

10 months is way too early to ask for great focus and doing long sessions.
I perfer ball training for most active excersises like heeling, "voraus" etc. And use food and sit, long down etc. It adds speed when it's needed and calms them down when needed.

Generally if she ignores the leash corrections, they are probably too mild. Try putting the collar right behind the ears, where the head ends and the neck starts. Don't let it slide up and down.
You'll see a huuuge difference, it works a tiny bit like a halty.

[liebejungen]

Schaeferhund said:

10 months is way too early to ask for great focus and doing long sessions.
I perfer ball training for most active excersises like heeling, "voraus" etc. And use food and sit, long down etc. It adds speed when it's needed and calms them down when needed.

Generally if she ignores the leash corrections, they are probably too mild. Try putting the collar right behind the ears, where the head ends and the neck starts. Don't let it slide up and down.
You'll see a huuuge difference, it works a tiny bit like a halty.

Thanks for the advice. How do you incorperate ball training?

I suppose that I have been spoiled with her up til now, because she has never been one to pull on the leash when walking (except when another dog comes onto the scene). She also has spoiled me by doing "bleib" for a half hour at a time already.

I am going to break it down to smaller chunks and try to work her on it every day until it becomes natural/conditioned.