Early obedience Training and drive?

[liebejungen]

This weekend, when I was checking out one of the Schutzhund clubs in my area (meaning within 2 hours of where I live).

In talking to one of the people there, he expressed an opinion that it is not good to do much obedience training of your dog before 1 year of age, because it can kill their drive. I had never heard this opinion, and naturally I am concerned, because we have done extensive Obedience work with Elsa.

After i came home, and started reading the obedience portion of Susan Barwig's Schutzhund book, i found that she alluded to this idea as well. (Although she expressed the opinion that if training is done inductively, that I will not have a negative affect on the dog's drive. )

Have any of you heard this, and what do you think of it.

[jochenvgw]

I think the important thing is to teach basic foundational obedience at a young age to your dog, but do it TOTALLY with motivational techniques, and don't worry about perfect "formal" obedience. You want a dog that is energetic and happy to get to the training field, not one that fears you because it might not be in perfect alignment when heeling.

Check out Sheila Booth's books, Purely positive training, and Schutzhund Obedience, as two books taht discuss how to train motivationally.

I wish I'd done more motivational, foundation work with my pup when he was really young as I'd have to get on him less now that he's older and more independent.

The problem they see comes in people who use the old "jerk and pull" compulsive methods of training. They can diminish a dogs drive just as it is beginning. Also, some people want too much too fast, remember that your dog is just a pup. If you're trying to get it to do reliable off-leash obedience at one year of age, you're probably having to do way too many corrections with the dog to keep its drive up at a high level.

good luck.

[liebejungen]

jochenvgw said:

I think the important thing is to teach basic foundational obedience at a young age to your dog, but do it TOTALLY with motivational techniques, and don't worry about perfect "formal" obedience. You want a dog that is energetic and happy to get to the training field, not one that fears you because it might not be in perfect alignment when heeling.

Check out Sheila Booth's books, Purely positive training, and Schutzhund Obedience, as two books taht discuss how to train motivationally.

I wish I'd done more motivational, foundation work with my pup when he was really young as I'd have to get on him less now that he's older and more independent.

The problem they see comes in people who use the old "jerk and pull" compulsive methods of training. They can diminish a dogs drive just as it is beginning. Also, some people want too much too fast, remember that your dog is just a pup. If you're trying to get it to do reliable off-leash obedience at one year of age, you're probably having to do way too many corrections with the dog to keep its drive up at a high level.

good luck.

Thanks. I orderd one of Shiela booths books last week (along with a video of Bernard Flinks)

I haven't done much by way of leash correction up until th elast couple of weeks. I probably should back off for a while longer and focus on nurturing drive.

[Schaeferhund]

That's what we're thinking as well.
I'm teaching my pup sit and down, and speak and heel and watch. But all as a game, I don't correct him, and I don't force him into positions (like pulling on the leash for down etc), but rather lure him into positions with ball.
Also no Long downs etc of course. A lot of drive building (EVEN though he's a little drive devil), puppy biting. NO compulation, no stress, all fun.
I agree with Jochen on what he said.

[liebejungen]

Schaeferhund said:

That's what we're thinking as well.
I'm teaching my pup sit and down, and speak and heel and watch. But all as a game, I don't correct him, and I don't force him into positions (like pulling on the leash for down etc), but rather lure him into positions with ball.
Also no Long downs etc of course. A lot of drive building (EVEN though he's a little drive devil), puppy biting. NO compulation, no stress, all fun.
I agree with Jochen on what he said.

What can I do now to build drive.

I have already made a mistake in teaching her the long down (which she does very very well for about 30 minutes).

I think i told my wife the other night, that there is so much i would do differently if we could start over. Mostly because I didn't not have a clear picture of what i wanted her to be in the end. We do not have any Schutzhund clubs close to us, so we didn't look into it as much as we could have. Now we have decided that if we have to drive 2 hours one way to train her wiht a club, we may be willing to do so.

We have not used much compulsion yet, and most of it has been inductive with food rewards. But if I had to do it over again (and with my next dog we will) I would keep the goal of drive and schutzhund in view in my training. I don't think things are ruined yet, if I can learn how to build her drives. Her pray drive is still pretty good.

So, how do I build drives now?

[Currmudgeon]

liebejungen said:

So, how do I build drives now?

Play.

Play in ways that stimulate the drives, and restrict play in areas that are just distracting.

It's possible to overdo it, but training based on play is about as low-stress as training gets.

[Schaeferhund]

liebejungen said:

So, how do I build drives now?

Though "play" is the right answer, you'll probably need somebody to show you how to play to get the most effect. There should an element of teasing the dog, but it's important not to overtease. There should be people in this club who might be able to show you.
Also never play too much at a time, don't let the dog's interest drop. Always stop when she's got the most interest to continue playing...

[liebejungen]

Schaeferhund said:

Also never play too much at a time, don't let the dog's interest drop. Always stop when she's got the most interest to continue playing...

That is a marvelous piece of advice! This is a rule i broke just yesterday and almost always do. I always play until she doen't want to anymore. But that makes sense with some of the things i have read.

Sorry if I sound as if I over analyze or worry about every little tiny thing. I seem to my self to be acting much like a new parent with there first child, which in fact she is. ;- )

Truth is, i worry about every little stage of developement, from whether her giant ears would stand, to if she has the drive that her father had.

I guess I want her to be perfect and i know she can't be. :- )

Thanks for the advice. I have started just playing a lot with her now. Today was easy because we just spent the afternoon in the back yard where she chased leaves until her heart was content (it is very windy here today). She has a good prey drive still, so i should stop worrying so much and just get her to have fun! And now i know to always leave her wanting more!

thanks. Anymore advice from anyone is always appreciated. Well i am of to observe another Schutzhund club!

J

[JanisN]

One important thing to teach her is that YOU control the toys. You bring them down, you decide when and what to play and you put them away. Leaving toys around is probably a most common mistake.

We use teasing play. I have a weasle whip (a long whip with a fuzzy tail attached), someone holds the dog on leash and I tease with the whip. She has to WORK to get the weasel and when she does, there is lots of praise and jubilation. I also teach the habit of running in a circle with the whip when she gains the prize.

If you're playing tug games and the pup wins (and they SHOULD win), don't let them mouth or kill the prey. When they do that, calmly tell them "Aus" (out) and get set for another game or finish up if you've decided that you're all through for the day.

We also play a LOT of ball. That helps so much with motivational training when I'm teaching leash walking. Walk with the ball under your chin or up near your face and remember to break out and play often.

Don't worry about the mistakes you've made. We've all made them. Just decide to do a bit better.

For the record, we train only house manners and leash manners before 12 months, but most of my youngsters can do a 30 minute down stay. They pick it up from the older dogs when we're at the dinner table.

JanisN

[Schaeferhund]

I agree to what Janis said. If you don't have anybody help you, you can also tie her to a tree or something. Take the ball or a jute toy (we clip it to a leash, easiest) and YOU play with it right in front of her. When oyu see she's totally dying to get to it, come a bit closer so she can snatch it from you, praise praise praise.
You can also play untied, but then you have to be fast, and not get dizzy too easily you have to lure and then turn away from her very fast, so she doesnt get it, she'll jump a lot and probably if she's good (or when she'll be getting drivey) bite your arm and hands a lot.... (my hands are blue, from my current pup... very embarracing in public ;D) Push her away a little when she's trying to get to the ball... etc.

Don't worry, she's still young, I have a female now, whos drives have been surpressed (not only not developed Surpressed!!) till she was 1 year 10 months!!!!
She's SchH1 ready now, 1 year later

[DDRGUY]

This is VERY important. If you want to build some explsove drive and enthusiasm in your pup, try this. When you take her to the club, crate her in your car.When she comes out, the first thing you do is PLAY! PLAY PLAY PLAY! Use the ball, use her favorit tug, anything. Its totally fun! And before she tires, she goes back into the crate. Leave her wanting more. You cana lso do this at places other than the club. Drive to a field and do it. Let her watch you dropping some toys int he field before taking her out of the crate. Be sure she can see you do it. Before long, she will soon associate that going to the club = FUN! This will help build some spirit. After this foundation is set, you will have a really spirited sport dog, and it wll all fall into place!

[Currmudgeon]

DDRGUY said:

Leave her wanting more.

That's such a critical point, I just wanted to emphasize it. If they get all the play they want, it's no big deal. If they have to grab it when they can, then they play harder.

Then put the dog up in the crate right away, while the feelings are fresh. Let the dog think about how much fun it just had. A lot of training happens in the crate.

[liebejungen]

Thank you all for the advice. I think the picture has become much more clear to me over the last couple of weeks. Through asking questions on here, Visiting Schutzhund Clubs, reading books and watching the Bernard Flinks video, i am starting to get the idea about what drive is and how to nurture it.

Job number one over the next few weeks is Drive building and Focus work (As we progress).