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Post by JanisN on Nov 21, 2003 14:00:16 GMT -5
The backstory on this is that we purchased Rikki in the summer and she waited in Germany until she was bred and confirmed pregnant before coming out to us. In Germany, Rikki was exclusively a kennel dog and not exposed to many of the rough and tumble things our American dogs deal with daily. She had two litters in Germany.
When Rikki got here (roughly three weeks before she whelped) we tried to ease her into the situation. She would have a few hours in a large run, then some house time, back to the run, house time, back to the run, and then into the house for the evening. She was crated by my oldest daughter's bed, Beth (27) has been the one to bond with her, feed her, etc.
Now that the pups are here, Rikki has no choice but to be in the house full time. We house raise our pups and we aren't going to change that. Worse, because she was due while the NASS was on, she had to be boarded at our vet's office and she whelped there. Yet more changes for her.
At first, Rikki was very protective of the pups. Dennis, Beth and I were the only people allowed around them, and she had a lot of trouble figuring out just why we were messing with them anyway. She accepted that we aren't hurting them, but she's a far cry from my other moms who will DRAG you over to see the litter and practically push puppies into your hands.
At one point, although he was being supervised by Beth, Rikki decided to discipline my grandson, James, for getting too close to the babies. She did this by pulling his hair, definitely treating him like a young dog who needed to be reprimanded. If the youngsters are in the same room as the whelping box, occasionally she will growl from several feet away and nip at them, though she IS at least 3 feet away from them. We definitely correct this behavior, but I'm trying to cut her a lot of slack.
I'm trying to figure out what is hormonal, what is protective and what is a dominant, bossy female deciding she's in control. She HAS decided that she owns Beth and should be able to dictate Beth's actions (she nipped Beth's date, how embarrassing!).
I feel that part of the solution is to wait out the hormones and protectiveness. Pups are 12 days old, things should get better. Also, next week, Beth is going to start working Rikki in obedience to change the dominance order.
What else can we be doing? I feel badly because I KNOW Rikki's under a lot of stress in the house and I want to lessen that stress. But she also needs to learn that any human being is soooo far above her in the pecking order that she can't even think about being dominant over them. Any suggestions will be very welcome. Rikki actually has an awesome temperament, very stable, very affectionate, very calm... so I hate to see her stressed out right now.
JanisN
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Post by MITTELWEST on Nov 21, 2003 14:50:28 GMT -5
Hello Janis,
I managed to get logged in...
I would recommend that you continue the very slow lifestyle change with Rikki...especially while she is going through all of the changes while whelping and raising this litter. I would recommend that Beth surely do some obedience training with Rikki if she like, but not now.
I would strongly advise that Rikki be allowed to settle and think of not much more than her new enviornment and mostly her new puppies. I would not begin any obedience training or new stresses of ANY kind until the puppies are completely weaned and have no more need for any nursing from Rikki. It is going to be a long winter, plenty of time for all ahead.
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Post by JanisN on Nov 21, 2003 15:17:11 GMT -5
Hey you! So wonderful to see you here! And THANK you for the advice. Duh... I could have called you and asked you, huh? <grin>
So we'll take it much more slowly. She really IS coping well considering all the changes. Poor girl, I ran the vacuum in the sun room the other day and she didn't know WHAT to think. Now I wait until Beth has her out on a ramble before cleaning up.
Usually, only Beth and I are in the sun room where the whelping box is. Since my desk is there, I'm there quite a lot. Dennis put a half door at the top of the steps to gate the area off (looks super!) so we've been trying to keep her insulated from a busy house. Do you think there's more we can be doing?
JanisN
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Post by CzechGSD on Nov 21, 2003 18:01:32 GMT -5
Well everyone knows that i'm not a breeder, but IMO, maybe it would be better to keep the kids(the little ones) away from Rikki and the pups when Rikki is in there. Maybe let the kids visit the pups when Rikki is out doing her "buisness". I know everyone would really hate for anything to happen to the kids but she already tried to teach one of them a lesson. Next time maybe she will get skin instead of hair.  Then after the babies are weaned and she learns how to behave in YOUR house, next time maybe she won't be so against the kids being around her babies. |
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Xando
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Post by Xando on Nov 21, 2003 20:15:48 GMT -5
Hiya Janis!!!  Congrats on bringing a new girl (Rikki) home. I agree with Julie that until Rikki becomes acclimated to her new environment and lifestyle changes that little should be done while she is busy raising her family. Because everything is so new to her, you, the new family, and the issue of raising her family inside, she is going to be cautious. I really don't think it's an issue of hormones at all. Just a huge difference in how things have been for her previously. I remember you giving advice to other people about introducing a new member to the family and the biggest word that jumped out was patience. Given enough of that the trust will develop and she'll be flying through your front door and giving you that look that says, " kennel? what's that?" And I'm sure with her next litter she will be dragging you over to show off those beautiful babes.. ;D |
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Post by Nicole on Nov 21, 2003 20:33:44 GMT -5
I agree, she nees time and space right now. Try to think of her growls and nips not as cheeky behaviors being performed by a dog that is thinking highly of herself, but instead of a polite dog's way of saying "You're putting me in a situation in which I"m uncomfortable, and I'm trying desperately to tell you this so that I don't have to act." Who are we not to respect that? She's wanting space from the boys, she's not sure of them or their intentions, and I highly suggest giving that to her. She's got the rest of her life to build a good relationship with them, after the worry of these puppies and her new environment have passed. Management is SO hard, I can imagine especially moreso when you have a group of young and energetic boys running around, but its in the best interest of them all to do so.
Also, are you adding any extra B complex or Rescue Remedy to her diet? I'd suggest either B complex with every meal, or a few drops of RR in her ear at least twice a day to help her deal with all this stress.
Give her a hug for me! ;D
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Post by MITTELWEST on Nov 21, 2003 21:46:20 GMT -5
Hey there...
Rescue Remedy is not readily recommended for pregnant women or breast feeding women...might also be the same for pregnant and nursing canines as well. (?) I recommend letting her cope on her own. The worst is behind her, in my opinion... and she is doing pretty well so far...would think she will get even better from day to day, week to week.
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Post by Currmudgeon on Nov 22, 2003 10:43:57 GMT -5
Julie!!!! Welcome aboard!
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Post by JanisN on Nov 22, 2003 12:28:01 GMT -5
Thank you so much for all your comments. I'm going to agree with Julie that I don't want to add supplements at this point that might get through into the milk. We've had a small (very small) run with mastitis that we cleared up topically to avoid contaminating the milk, so I want to keep the milk supply clean if we possibly can.
And I agree, keeping the kids way out of the way is definitely the way to go. It scared them when she snapped, even though it was such a distance and I don't want THEM scared or her to feel insecure. She's being a good mom, I don't want to push it.
Beth is doing a little more with her each day as she feels comfortable leaving the pups. Even simple stuff like going for a ride in the car, dropping Jamie off at school.
She DOES like the kids. When they are all outside together, she's very curious about them and very gentle with them. And she absolutely adores 6 month old Aaron.
So, we'll keep on keeping on, letting her relax more and expanding her experience level VERY slowly. I really appreciate everyone's help.
JanisN
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Post by ShermanRanchGSD on Nov 22, 2003 13:02:49 GMT -5
SOME bitches ( imported or not) dont care for any outsiders to be around their brood, some dont even care for insiders to be interfering with them.
When the pups get a little older the bitch may be more willing to accept outside visitors.In the mean time, you might consider put the bitch up (out of site and smell) before allowing visiting sessions.
Can you imagine being sent to a foriegn land to whelp your child, then your adopted family is even gone and you have a strange doctor take over?
Best wishes,
D.L.Sherman
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Post by whizzie on Nov 22, 2003 21:08:30 GMT -5
My bitch lives indoors and has had two litters. The whelping box is in a heated shed in the yard, with a run that "grows" with the puppies; the bitch can get in and out whenever she wants but the puppies are safely contained. She actually demands my company during whelping, and is happy for the closest family members to visit her and admire her babies. Anyone else gets warned to keep out in no uncertain terms. If they do not back off quickly she grabs their clothing and pulls them away; my father found out the hard way! She has never nipped or bitten, but I wouldn't like to push her to the limit. I feel that under these circumstances she should not be disciplined for her very natural protective behaviour. We just try to make sure the situation doesn't arise. So the whelping box is her domain and she gets to control who visits when SHE is there. What she doesn't know doesn't hurt, and I have not had any problem allowing visitors with her safely out of the way. Once the puppies have their eyes open they are handled by more people; the dam is fine with this as long as it is NOT in the whelping/kennel area. Even past weaning she does not like unfamiliar people approaching "her" inner sanctum. Maybe Rikki needs somewhere that is her own space, where she knows she can just get on with being a mum without too much distraction? She has had a major upheaval at a time when her hormones are working overtime, her puppies are far more important to her than learning her place in the new pecking order. Once her puppies are more active and less dependant she'll get her life back and want to find her place in your household. She sounds as if she's a real sweetie that is just over-stressed at the moment. If she can enjoy some quality time with you, but also quality time with her babies she should start to relax a bit more... My gut feeling is that too much discipline may add to the problem, whereas playing and getting to know each other might be more productive. However, I'm not suggesting you let her run riot. Could you perhaps take her out and do something nice when the puppies are being handled, and give her more privacy when she is nursing them? |
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Post by Currmudgeon on Nov 22, 2003 22:44:02 GMT -5
Maybe Rikki needs somewhere that is her own space, where she knows she can just get on with being a mum without too much distraction? She'll be moving out into the building that will become the whelping barn, in a coupla weeks, once the puppers are a little bigger. That makes sense. A major part of the issue is that Rikki is very demanding of beth. She nailed Beth's date, when they were going out the door. And she grabbed me (it wasn't enough to be called a bite) for the same reason. She won't do that again. The trick will be to raise Beth's status WRT the bitch without over stressing her. Maybe a little light obedience. Something more game oriented, but just structured enough that it's obvious tyhat Beth is running the show. |
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Gator
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Post by Gator on Nov 23, 2003 12:10:55 GMT -5
A dog in such situation is looking for an anchor, any source of security she can find. They usually attach to a person to serve as that as they make the adjustment. Sounds as if Beth is serving that function for her. She would be demanding and protective of Beth in this situation. I don't see any reason to worry about disciplining, raising hierarchy issues or anything. Gentle guidance and a great deal more time is needed for an animal that came three weeks prior to whelp and into such an incredibly foreign environment. Sounds like she has done remarkably well. Is there some great concern that she is dangerous, that she needs to learn lessons like "don't ever do THAT again"? In these types of unfortunate setups where the dog is bound to be under undue stress, management and stress reduction go farther than training as the adjustment period progresses, IMO. I know for sure my bitches if placed in such a situation would cause people to write many more reams about grief than the Rikki dog has inspired.  I am amazed she has done so well considering the pressures upon her. |
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Post by JanisN on Nov 23, 2003 13:26:13 GMT -5
Well, nipping at any family member is definitely a "don't ever do that again" situation.
Really, I think Rikki is amazingly stable and the genetics are VERY sound. I'm not thinking of putting her on the prong collar and yanking her around! Her bond with Beth is good and necessary and exactly what we hoped she would do. It's WAY too much to expect that she would instinctively see all of us as being here to protect and help her.
She's getting a LOT of new things thrown at her, and many other dogs wouldn't be able to cope. I have a lot of hope that eventually, she will learn to appreciate having house time as well as kennel run time.
I've taken big steps to quieten her area even more. Now the boys are allowed in only to pass through to another part of the house or to go outside.
We have a lot of inside/outside entrances to the house, but the sunroom is the most convenient for them. Her crate is as far as possible from the doors and she deals well with them just passing through. She seems to enjoy having the company if it's minimal. I sit down at my desk and she'll wander over to put her head in my lap. Beth sits down on the couch to read and Rikki will setlle at her feet. She also likes the TV on and will lay in her whelping box watching the goggle box.
We've always house raised our whelps, I'm not looking forward to not doing that. In the spring, we'll start converting the very small stable behind the house to whelping areas. It has a wonderful area for a fenced puppy yard right behind it, it's very close to the house and won't be hard to insulate and improve. But there darned well better be room for a comfy chair for me!
JanisN
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Post by Currmudgeon on Nov 23, 2003 16:53:38 GMT -5
But there darned well better be room for a comfy chair for me! It sounds like it will have a TV cable and a network connection as well the compressed air line. |
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Congrats on bringing a new girl (Rikki) home. I agree with Julie that until Rikki becomes acclimated to her new environment and lifestyle changes that little should be done while she is busy raising her family. Because everything is so new to her, you, the new family, and the issue of raising her family inside, she is going to be cautious. I really don't think it's an issue of hormones at all. Just a huge difference in how things have been for her previously. 
I am amazed she has done so well considering the pressures upon her.