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Post by Brittany on Nov 24, 2003 1:08:19 GMT -5
Heard from a friend that theirs a rumor thats going around that Supra is producing puppies with bad hips? Is this true? can somebody conform it?
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Post by JanisN on Nov 24, 2003 11:29:59 GMT -5
I can't confirm or deny. You have to realize though that ANY dog (every?) dog is going to produce a certain percentage of bad hips. I haven't heard anything in particular about Rapi Supra but I also haven't seen much progeny on the ground.
JanisN
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Post by VonIsengard on Nov 24, 2003 12:16:50 GMT -5
Remember also that the sire is only 50% of the genes. Supra has a2 hips, I believe? Correct me if I am wrong. It is up the the breeder to decide if they want to use that rating. I would use an a2 stud with an a1 bitch. However, breeding 2 dogwith a2 or even a3 hips, I would assume would give you a higher chance of bad hips than breeding 2 dogs with a1 hipe. For example, the beautiful Supra daughter posted in the other thread has a3 hips, still breedable, I personally would prefer not to use it. The mother of that bitch also has a2 hips, if I remember right.
If you absolutely love a stud who has a2 or a3 hips, you must research first whether or not he produces those hips, but also the mother- how are her hips, and the hips of her previous litters?
Rumors are exactly that- rumors.
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Post by Adel Haus on Nov 27, 2003 20:01:23 GMT -5
We have used Rapi Supra under the advice of one of the top GSD breeders/judges....and the results I have seen have been SUPER!!! We had 7 puppies in the litter, six males/1 female....all have had super pigment, structure and are biting little monsters. I kept back a male and female from the litter... The hip status of the litter will start to be revealed in about 6-9 months..... As with any male out there, Supi has produced bad hips. I don't see any reason not to breed to him, unless you have a female that doesn't have a strong hip line, or who is proven not produce the best of hips. Rumor can really hurt people and the reputation of dogs, and I guess unless there is concrete evidence out there that he is above average in producing bad hips, then I would seriously doubt the rumors.... Having had Supi at my house, around my children, my puppies, my other dogs, and his working ability.....I can see a dog that is commendable in temperament and his drives. He is absolutely gorgeous and easy to handle. The only reason for there not to be too many progeny is due to the fact that Supi was sterile for a time due to spotted tick fever..... But, having had first hand experience with him....I would use him and recommend him any day.
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Post by Brittany on Nov 27, 2003 22:04:30 GMT -5
I had contacted Bill Fleischer about the rumor, havent recieved an email yet but I'm sure he will soon as I'm sure hes quite busy at the moment. I also noted why theirs only 3 dogs of which is OFA'd thats related to Rapi. No litters has been registered.
Christi do you happen to have pictures of whats left?
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Post by Adel Haus on Nov 27, 2003 22:23:38 GMT -5
To my knowledge, there are no litters currently registered with the AKC that are sired by Supi.... This reason only being that the co-owner, Hans-Haussler (not sure about the spelling), had to sign specific documents as the co-owner.... We are awaiting our litter registration application from Bill.... There will be no problems with registration, just a matter of paperwork formality...
I have a couple of pictures of the puppies that I need to upload on my website... The breeding between Supi and my V-Vessa v. Bad-Boll was a linebreeding 2-3 on Neptun v. Bad-Boll... I love the strength that Neptun brings to the work with correct breeding....
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Post by Schaeferhund on Nov 28, 2003 7:24:24 GMT -5
Rapi's ZW has not gone up a lot. His parents are 97 and 89, which gives a starting ZW of appr. 93. His momentary ZW is 94. So he couldn't have produced that bad hips, otherwise zw would have gone up.
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Post by JanisN on Nov 28, 2003 10:37:35 GMT -5
ZW numbers are very easily manipulated and that's a fundamental problem with them. IF you have a young dog that you suspect won't "a" stamp, you simply bite the bullet, sell the dog as a pet and don't submit for an "a" stamp. It's the same with OFA. The ZW is ONLY a valuable tool when it accompanies the percentages of total progeny x-rayed. For example, I'm going to trust a dog with a zw of 94 and 42% of progeny "a" stamped than a male with a zw of 81 and only 18% progeny "a" stamped. Pulled those figures out of the air, not referring to any particular dogs!
JanisN
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topgsd
Junior Member
if it's not a GSD, it's only a dog
Posts: 16
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Post by topgsd on Nov 28, 2003 13:02:49 GMT -5
Supra's current statistics says: 109 pups sired in 30 litters 95 old enough for xrays, 33 a-stamped =34,74% new Genetics will be available end of December, I can re-check and post changes here though a total percentage of almost 35 is not that bad too me also, details show that up to now there is no a4 or a5 rating, he's is 50% below avarage with a3s, 10% above avarage with a2s and only 3% low with a1s. He might tend to produce more a2-hips than others but that's not what I would call bad hips.
Janis, you are right that ZW can be manipulated. Still it gives you an idea of how a male produces and thanks to ZW and Genetics we can get much more info on hips of a dog's family which I think is important too.
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Post by Brittany on Dec 1, 2003 5:56:10 GMT -5
Jana, Since you live in germany and that i cant read a whole lot of german that can you check into and see if Supra is still barred from breeding in germany? The last time i heard is when he was shooting out blanks?
Dont think that i dont like Supra because I do. If i had a female that I would breed her to Supra anyday. How well do the people in germany treat their dogs? I heard that the reason for the blanks is that Supra was stressed out to the point of the shooting out the blanks, theirs gotta be a reason why he was stressed? I am very curious about this so called rumor and wanting to know more.
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Post by Adel Haus on Dec 1, 2003 10:07:57 GMT -5
Rapi Supra is no longer on the banned list... Why would we have bred to him, under the direction of a top German judge/breeder, if he had been banned?? Supi contracted spotted tick fever, which results in high fevers and since sperm is very sensative to temperature changes, this caused his infertility for a short time. This has been dealt with and the dog is back to normal... I had a litter of seven gorgeous puppies to prove that..... This is not a dog who is stressed out easily, in fact, his temperament is very flexible and forgiving.... I guess he is a dog who you really have to get to know to appreciate this type of quality....
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Post by Brittany on Dec 1, 2003 14:04:00 GMT -5
Where can I go see the current banned Breeding list in Germany? if theirs one in the USA that I'm also interested, including breeders/Kennels. Rapi is a wonderful male. I'm sorry about the tick fever that he had gotten but if that is the only reason why he was banned from Germany, well what can i say? Pathetic! That is not an excuse for banning a dog... The past owner of Rapi should of deleted his name off of the stud list until he is better The past Owner is to blame for the bad reputation that Rapi has for some people.
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Post by Adel Haus on Dec 1, 2003 14:20:14 GMT -5
Actually, they had no way of knowing that he was sterile or how long he had been sick.... So, really, it is no ones fault.... In Germany, when any particular male has a certain number of females that do not have a positive pregnancy, the SV can demand a sperm count done.. Believe it or not, this has been done on some very high ranking and well used males... It is safeguarding the breed.
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Post by Brittany on Dec 1, 2003 14:39:01 GMT -5
Do you know where I can see the banned list from both germany and from the USA?
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Post by Adel Haus on Dec 1, 2003 15:29:59 GMT -5
The SV magazine comes out with the list....
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